Photo of Kimberlie Johnson, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Kimberlie Johnson
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, CSW
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Provo, UT 84604
As a trauma informed therapist, it's important to help individuals find safety in their environment and surroundings. In session, we start by developing skills to manage emotional triggers before working through personal stressors/traumas. After coping skills are established, we will start working on the stressors/traumas through a variety of modalities. Because therapy is not one size fits all, I take an eclectic approach to therapy, providing a wide range of tools and resources to help each client work through their personal struggles.
As a trauma informed therapist, it's important to help individuals find safety in their environment and surroundings. In session, we start by developing skills to manage emotional triggers before working through personal stressors/traumas. After coping skills are established, we will start working on the stressors/traumas through a variety of modalities. Because therapy is not one size fits all, I take an eclectic approach to therapy, providing a wide range of tools and resources to help each client work through their personal struggles.
(385) 367-2451 View (385) 367-2451
Photo of Karen Ritchie, Counselor in Utah
Karen Ritchie
Counselor, MA, LCMHC
Verified Verified
Sandy, UT 84070
Often we have experienced overwhelming life events or trauma without realizing how much impact they have had on our emotional, mental, social, physical, and spiritual functioning and wellbeing.
I am passionate about providing a safe space and guiding interventions so that you can find healing, transformation and growth. Whether you're experiencing an emotional struggle, relationship difficulty, life transition, loss or grief, unresolved trauma, struggle with self worth, PTSD, depression, anxiety, or addiction, I can guide you through the process of change with empathy, support, and knowledge. I will work with you collaboratively to discover your strengths, needs, and goals and help you find your own inner wisdom. I will also focus on resolving the underlying roots of your issues, not just help you manage your symptoms.
Often we have experienced overwhelming life events or trauma without realizing how much impact they have had on our emotional, mental, social, physical, and spiritual functioning and wellbeing.
I am passionate about providing a safe space and guiding interventions so that you can find healing, transformation and growth. Whether you're experiencing an emotional struggle, relationship difficulty, life transition, loss or grief, unresolved trauma, struggle with self worth, PTSD, depression, anxiety, or addiction, I can guide you through the process of change with empathy, support, and knowledge. I will work with you collaboratively to discover your strengths, needs, and goals and help you find your own inner wisdom. I will also focus on resolving the underlying roots of your issues, not just help you manage your symptoms.
(801) 528-1329 View (801) 528-1329
Photo of Amanda Daines, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Amanda Daines
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, ACSW
Verified Verified
Lindon, UT 84042
Whether you experience anxiety, depression, trauma, gender/identity issues or suicidal thoughts I’m here to navigate your storm with you to create lasting change.
Throughout our lives we all face storms of many kinds. Often, we don’t even realize we’re in a storm or that the storm is over. My role as your therapist is help you travel through those storms and come out the other side different than who you were before. I believe that everyone is capable of change and healing, and my approach to therapy stems from that belief. I like to work from several approaches while using a variety of evidence-based modalities to fit your specific needs.
Whether you experience anxiety, depression, trauma, gender/identity issues or suicidal thoughts I’m here to navigate your storm with you to create lasting change.
Throughout our lives we all face storms of many kinds. Often, we don’t even realize we’re in a storm or that the storm is over. My role as your therapist is help you travel through those storms and come out the other side different than who you were before. I believe that everyone is capable of change and healing, and my approach to therapy stems from that belief. I like to work from several approaches while using a variety of evidence-based modalities to fit your specific needs.
(385) 503-4497 View (385) 503-4497
Photo of Holly Dixon, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Holly Dixon
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW, MSW
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Lehi, UT 84043
Do you feel stuck or burned out? Are you or your child/teen struggling with anxiety or depression? Do you feel like you are drowning with the demands of life and can’t seem to keep your head above water? Or maybe you are experiencing a crisis in your life (infidelity, death, divorce), you feel blindsided & don’t even know where to begin. I can help. Utilizing a trauma-informed, strengths-based approach, I will meet you where you are, and help you to learn tools to cope more effectively with the stressors that you are experiencing.
Do you feel stuck or burned out? Are you or your child/teen struggling with anxiety or depression? Do you feel like you are drowning with the demands of life and can’t seem to keep your head above water? Or maybe you are experiencing a crisis in your life (infidelity, death, divorce), you feel blindsided & don’t even know where to begin. I can help. Utilizing a trauma-informed, strengths-based approach, I will meet you where you are, and help you to learn tools to cope more effectively with the stressors that you are experiencing.
(385) 399-8787 View (385) 399-8787
Photo of Dani Green At Rise Therapy And Coaching, Marriage & Family Therapist Associate in Utah
Dani Green At Rise Therapy And Coaching
Marriage & Family Therapist Associate, AMFT
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Saint George, UT 84790
Understanding this and working with the client to guide the process, healing from trauma is possible and sustainable.
At some point, we may find ourselves in a position that throws us off track with no idea how to move forward. I have personally experienced situations where I needed expert help to guide me through the maze in a way where I emerged resilient and empowered. I specialize in trauma, as it seems that almost everyone has experienced trauma at some point in life. It is helpful to understand how trauma is processed by the brain and the body in a completely different way from processing a healthy, happy experience.
Understanding this and working with the client to guide the process, healing from trauma is possible and sustainable.
At some point, we may find ourselves in a position that throws us off track with no idea how to move forward. I have personally experienced situations where I needed expert help to guide me through the maze in a way where I emerged resilient and empowered. I specialize in trauma, as it seems that almost everyone has experienced trauma at some point in life. It is helpful to understand how trauma is processed by the brain and the body in a completely different way from processing a healthy, happy experience.
(435) 383-2450 View (435) 383-2450
Photo of Salt City Therapy, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Salt City Therapy
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
We are an inclusive, somatic, neurodiverse, trauma informed, and sensitive therapy practice nestled in the Liberty Wells area of Salt Lake City, Utah working with couples, adolescents, and adults.
We are an inclusive, somatic, neurodiverse, trauma informed, and sensitive therapy practice nestled in the Liberty Wells area of Salt Lake City, Utah working with couples, adolescents, and adults.
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Photo of Healing Crossroads Therapy, Marriage & Family Therapist in Utah
Healing Crossroads Therapy
Marriage & Family Therapist, LMFT
Verified Verified
At Healing Crossroads Therapy , we offer research-based, efficient approaches to processing and healing from trauma as well as overcoming anxiety, depression and other life struggles.
Tenille Jensen, LMFT & owner of Healing Crossroads therapy, loves to help individuals overcome a variety of challenges and struggles. She has specialized training in treating trauma. She has extensive experience working with individuals on issues such as anxiety, depression, self esteem, perfectionism and grief. Relationships are often affected by these challenges and she will direct you in how to heal your relationships with others as well. Joshua McBride, MFT-I, another member of our team at Healing Crossroads Therapy, loves to work with couples and families in their journeys to healing and growth.
At Healing Crossroads Therapy , we offer research-based, efficient approaches to processing and healing from trauma as well as overcoming anxiety, depression and other life struggles.
Tenille Jensen, LMFT & owner of Healing Crossroads therapy, loves to help individuals overcome a variety of challenges and struggles. She has specialized training in treating trauma. She has extensive experience working with individuals on issues such as anxiety, depression, self esteem, perfectionism and grief. Relationships are often affected by these challenges and she will direct you in how to heal your relationships with others as well. Joshua McBride, MFT-I, another member of our team at Healing Crossroads Therapy, loves to work with couples and families in their journeys to healing and growth.
(385) 243-7376 View (385) 243-7376
Photo of Hartley Heals, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Hartley Heals
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW, CBP
Verified Verified
Ogden, UT 84401
Are you ready to embark on a transformative journey with a seasoned therapist specializing in LGBTQIA+ issues, trauma, and energy psychology? I provide a safe inclusive space for individuals seeking profound healing and personal growth. As a trauma specialist, I am dedicated to guiding you through the process of reclaiming your strength and rewriting your story. Together, we'll utilize an array of cutting edge therapeutic techniques to release trauma, find trapped emotions and help you begin to feel better on all levels. My rare, specialized skill set, allows us to explore the root of physical ailments and so much more.
Are you ready to embark on a transformative journey with a seasoned therapist specializing in LGBTQIA+ issues, trauma, and energy psychology? I provide a safe inclusive space for individuals seeking profound healing and personal growth. As a trauma specialist, I am dedicated to guiding you through the process of reclaiming your strength and rewriting your story. Together, we'll utilize an array of cutting edge therapeutic techniques to release trauma, find trapped emotions and help you begin to feel better on all levels. My rare, specialized skill set, allows us to explore the root of physical ailments and so much more.
(801) 872-8655 View (801) 872-8655
Photo of Bryce Barker, Marriage & Family Therapist in Utah
Bryce Barker
Marriage & Family Therapist, MMFT, LMFT
Verified Verified
20 Endorsed
Provo, UT 84604
You're here because you're brave. Maybe you are feeling stuck. You've done what you feel you can. Something still isn't working. You're hoping an outside perspective will help you find the path to change or healing. This is where I can help. I specialize in treating sexual addiction and pornography problems, the associated betrayal trauma typically experienced by partners, anxiety, depression, LGBTQ+ concerns, trauma, relationship struggles, faith crisis, faith transition and mixed faith marriages. Whatever your goals are, I will be there to help you find the path to success.
You're here because you're brave. Maybe you are feeling stuck. You've done what you feel you can. Something still isn't working. You're hoping an outside perspective will help you find the path to change or healing. This is where I can help. I specialize in treating sexual addiction and pornography problems, the associated betrayal trauma typically experienced by partners, anxiety, depression, LGBTQ+ concerns, trauma, relationship struggles, faith crisis, faith transition and mixed faith marriages. Whatever your goals are, I will be there to help you find the path to success.
(385) 213-0826 View (385) 213-0826
Photo of Kayleen Savage Davidson, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Kayleen Savage Davidson
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Layton, UT 84040  (Online Only)
I specialize in working with adolescents, adults, couples and families dealing with cognitive and behavioral issues, mood disorders, anxiety, trauma and PTSD, addiction and relationship issues .
My hope for working with the clients I do is to help them with insights and tools for whatever isn't working in their life in order to empower them to have the most effective experience in life that they can. I am a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and have been certified for the last 7 years. I have been involved with treating addiction and mental health on and off for the past 16 years. I received my Bachelor's degree from Weber State University in Secondary Education in 2006. I graduated with my Masters of Social Work from the University of Utah in 2010.
I specialize in working with adolescents, adults, couples and families dealing with cognitive and behavioral issues, mood disorders, anxiety, trauma and PTSD, addiction and relationship issues .
My hope for working with the clients I do is to help them with insights and tools for whatever isn't working in their life in order to empower them to have the most effective experience in life that they can. I am a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and have been certified for the last 7 years. I have been involved with treating addiction and mental health on and off for the past 16 years. I received my Bachelor's degree from Weber State University in Secondary Education in 2006. I graduated with my Masters of Social Work from the University of Utah in 2010.
(801) 893-9622 View (801) 893-9622
Photo of Sunny Strasburg, LMFT, P.C., Marriage & Family Therapist in Utah
Sunny Strasburg, LMFT, P.C.
Marriage & Family Therapist, MA, LMFT, EMDR, IFS
Verified Verified
2 Endorsed
Waitlist for new clients
Sunny Strasburg, MA, LMFT is a trainer of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of The Theradelic Approach: Psychedelic Therapy. Perspective, Preparation, and Practice. She specializes in Internal Family Systems, EMDR Certified (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprogramming) for trauma, archetypal psychology, and the Gottman Couples Method. Certified in Psychedelic Assisted Psychotherapy by CIIS. Trained in ketamine, psilocybin assisted therapy, and MDMA assisted psychotherapy. Sunny hosts retreats with Dr. Richard Schwartz, creator of IFS. Please email to inquire. Visit www.sunnystrasburgtherapy.com.
Sunny Strasburg, MA, LMFT is a trainer of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of The Theradelic Approach: Psychedelic Therapy. Perspective, Preparation, and Practice. She specializes in Internal Family Systems, EMDR Certified (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprogramming) for trauma, archetypal psychology, and the Gottman Couples Method. Certified in Psychedelic Assisted Psychotherapy by CIIS. Trained in ketamine, psilocybin assisted therapy, and MDMA assisted psychotherapy. Sunny hosts retreats with Dr. Richard Schwartz, creator of IFS. Please email to inquire. Visit www.sunnystrasburgtherapy.com.
(385) 219-4969 View (385) 219-4969
Photo of Rebecca Hoffman, Marriage & Family Therapist Intern in Utah
Rebecca Hoffman
Marriage & Family Therapist Intern, CFLE-P
Verified Verified
2 Endorsed
Highland, UT 84003
Hope is a powerful tool. Research has shown that progress and healing can be made when someone has it. Adversity, challenges, trauma, abuse, betrayal, abandonment, long-term illness, couple and family conflict, divorce, single-parenting, blending families, and grief can cause anyone to struggle. I have experienced these things and chose to further my education to know how to pay it forward to others seeking relief. Even the most extreme circumstances can be neutralized through therapy.
Hope is a powerful tool. Research has shown that progress and healing can be made when someone has it. Adversity, challenges, trauma, abuse, betrayal, abandonment, long-term illness, couple and family conflict, divorce, single-parenting, blending families, and grief can cause anyone to struggle. I have experienced these things and chose to further my education to know how to pay it forward to others seeking relief. Even the most extreme circumstances can be neutralized through therapy.
(385) 438-7295 View (385) 438-7295
Photo of Kirsten Jacobson, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Kirsten Jacobson
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW
Verified Verified
3 Endorsed
Layton, UT 84041
I offer warm and compassionate therapy for those struggling with trauma due to divorce, abuse, bullying, medical, etc. I enjoy helping people recognize their own self-worth and instill a feeling of hope for the future. My areas of focus are overcoming past trauma/PTSD, women's issues such as infertility and Postpartum Mood Disorders, and working with children and families to improve relationships and to teach coping skills necessary for life's challenges. I am an experienced EMDR therapist.
I offer warm and compassionate therapy for those struggling with trauma due to divorce, abuse, bullying, medical, etc. I enjoy helping people recognize their own self-worth and instill a feeling of hope for the future. My areas of focus are overcoming past trauma/PTSD, women's issues such as infertility and Postpartum Mood Disorders, and working with children and families to improve relationships and to teach coping skills necessary for life's challenges. I am an experienced EMDR therapist.
(385) 355-7792 View (385) 355-7792
Photo of Amanda J. Gonzalez, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Amanda J. Gonzalez
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, MSW, LCSW
Verified Verified
4 Endorsed
Murray, UT 84121
As a growing expert in trauma, mindfulness, and body-mind bridging across the lifespan, I will strive to assist you with your concerns. My approach is light-hearted and evidence informed. I often integrate cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), dialectics, and psychodynamics into my education-based style. We will certainly work on attachment concerns and healthy "relating," too.
As a growing expert in trauma, mindfulness, and body-mind bridging across the lifespan, I will strive to assist you with your concerns. My approach is light-hearted and evidence informed. I often integrate cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), dialectics, and psychodynamics into my education-based style. We will certainly work on attachment concerns and healthy "relating," too.
(801) 675-4644 View (801) 675-4644
Photo of Helen B. Johnson, CMHC, Counselor in Utah
Helen B. Johnson, CMHC
Counselor, CMHC
Verified Verified
Cedar City, UT 84720
I work with veterans with anxiety, depression, PTSD, and more.
At times life can be difficult and we may seek professional help. During these times, you need a person who helps you to feel safe as you work through the trials you may face and help you become empowered. My office is very warm and comforting as we work together through difficulties that arise.
I work with veterans with anxiety, depression, PTSD, and more.
At times life can be difficult and we may seek professional help. During these times, you need a person who helps you to feel safe as you work through the trials you may face and help you become empowered. My office is very warm and comforting as we work together through difficulties that arise.
(435) 258-6058 View (435) 258-6058
Photo of Joellyn Manville, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Joellyn Manville
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, MSW, LCSW
Verified Verified
I have extensive experience and training in working with adults and young adults in overcoming difficulties with trauma, PTSD, depression, low self-esteem, boundaries, adoption, communication problems, and life transitions.
Currently accepting new clients using Self Pay, BCBS, PEHP or U of U Healthy Premier or Silver insurances. My style is to use direct and useful feedback whenever appropriate to make treatment both comfortable and effective. I have been told my genuine and transparent style is the reason I am effective. I view all behaviors as being a reaction to situations and originally adaptive and I view all clients as doing the best they can. I will take the time to understand what you are going through, and refrain from making assumptions or judgments.
I have extensive experience and training in working with adults and young adults in overcoming difficulties with trauma, PTSD, depression, low self-esteem, boundaries, adoption, communication problems, and life transitions.
Currently accepting new clients using Self Pay, BCBS, PEHP or U of U Healthy Premier or Silver insurances. My style is to use direct and useful feedback whenever appropriate to make treatment both comfortable and effective. I have been told my genuine and transparent style is the reason I am effective. I view all behaviors as being a reaction to situations and originally adaptive and I view all clients as doing the best they can. I will take the time to understand what you are going through, and refrain from making assumptions or judgments.
(801) 416-3637 View (801) 416-3637
Photo of Jody Burningham, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Jody Burningham
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW
Verified Verified
3 Endorsed
Lehi, UT 84043
Life’s challenges can be difficult to navigate. As a therapist, I appreciate the courage it takes to start the road to a better life. I provide a professional and therapeutic environment while utilizing evidence-based skills to get to the heart of the issue. My clinical expertise includes working with adults who are experiencing depression, anxiety, trauma, post-partum depression and grief and loss. I also enjoy working with couples who have issues with infertility and adoption. There is hope and healing ahead with the steps you are taking now to get help.
Life’s challenges can be difficult to navigate. As a therapist, I appreciate the courage it takes to start the road to a better life. I provide a professional and therapeutic environment while utilizing evidence-based skills to get to the heart of the issue. My clinical expertise includes working with adults who are experiencing depression, anxiety, trauma, post-partum depression and grief and loss. I also enjoy working with couples who have issues with infertility and adoption. There is hope and healing ahead with the steps you are taking now to get help.
(801) 797-3386 View (801) 797-3386
Photo of Kelly Young, Marriage & Family Therapist Associate in Utah
Kelly Young
Marriage & Family Therapist Associate, MMFT, LAMFT
Verified Verified
3 Endorsed
Lehi, UT 84043
Life is hard–let’s talk about it! Relationships can be immensely rewarding and extremely difficult. I am passionate about helping individuals, couples, and families with a variety of challenges including anxiety, depression, communication, self-esteem, and trauma. I am trained in accelerated resolution therapy, a trauma informed model (similar to EMDR). I believe therapy is a collaborative process and I’m here to help you set goals and become the best version of yourself.
Life is hard–let’s talk about it! Relationships can be immensely rewarding and extremely difficult. I am passionate about helping individuals, couples, and families with a variety of challenges including anxiety, depression, communication, self-esteem, and trauma. I am trained in accelerated resolution therapy, a trauma informed model (similar to EMDR). I believe therapy is a collaborative process and I’m here to help you set goals and become the best version of yourself.
(385) 481-5699 View (385) 481-5699
Photo of Jodi Williamson, Pre-Licensed Professional in Utah
Jodi Williamson
Pre-Licensed Professional
Verified Verified
4 Endorsed
Lehi, UT 84043
I can help with issues such as depression and other mood disorders, anxiety and fear, grief and loss, trauma, parenting and divorce-related problems, among others.
I believe that we all have a deep well of wisdom within us and that as my therapy client, you have the ability within you to change your life. My job is to help you access your existing inner strength and wisdom so you can change your life course toward what you really want. I have a deep compassion for the pain you’re experiencing and I use a collaborative approach so that we can work together as a team on your healing journey. I truly enjoy working with a wide variety of age groups and populations.
I can help with issues such as depression and other mood disorders, anxiety and fear, grief and loss, trauma, parenting and divorce-related problems, among others.
I believe that we all have a deep well of wisdom within us and that as my therapy client, you have the ability within you to change your life. My job is to help you access your existing inner strength and wisdom so you can change your life course toward what you really want. I have a deep compassion for the pain you’re experiencing and I use a collaborative approach so that we can work together as a team on your healing journey. I truly enjoy working with a wide variety of age groups and populations.
(801) 758-2623 View (801) 758-2623
Photo of Jennie Christianson, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Jennie Christianson
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Spanish Fork, UT 84660
I use an evidenced based eclectic approach which includes Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), Trauma Focused Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (TF-CBT), Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), Solution Focused Therapy, Motivational Interviewing, and Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR).
For the past 11 years, I have worked with adolescents and their families in residential treatment and outpatient therapy. This time has only deepened my empathy and understanding for individuals that endure very difficult life circumstances. I admire those seek help and healing. A strong relationship is the foundation of therapy. I am especially skilled at building the trust necessary to address complex behavioral and emotional issues. I especially enjoy helping children, adolescents, and their parents create safety in their homes, improve communication, change negative patterns, and believe that they can heal.
I use an evidenced based eclectic approach which includes Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), Trauma Focused Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (TF-CBT), Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), Solution Focused Therapy, Motivational Interviewing, and Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR).
For the past 11 years, I have worked with adolescents and their families in residential treatment and outpatient therapy. This time has only deepened my empathy and understanding for individuals that endure very difficult life circumstances. I admire those seek help and healing. A strong relationship is the foundation of therapy. I am especially skilled at building the trust necessary to address complex behavioral and emotional issues. I especially enjoy helping children, adolescents, and their parents create safety in their homes, improve communication, change negative patterns, and believe that they can heal.
(385) 213-1904 View (385) 213-1904
Trauma and PTSD Therapists

When should I seek treatment for trauma?

Not everyone who undergoes trauma needs therapy to heal, but many do. If, after experiencing a traumatic event, you find yourself struggling with symptoms such as nightmares, dissociation, irritability, or emotional numbness—especially if these symptoms last more than a month and are severe enough to interfere with your daily functioning—you may benefit from seeking out therapy with a trauma-informed provider.

How long does trauma therapy take?

Different types of therapy for trauma unfold on different timelines. Prolonged exposure therapy and cognitive processing therapy, for example, each take about three months, while trauma-informed CBT may last anywhere from 8 to 25 sessions. Other approaches, especially those that are less structured or that incorporate elements from multiple modalities, may be more open-ended, though many patients report feeling better within the first few months of treatment.

What happens if trauma is left untreated?

Unaddressed trauma can have serious—even devastating—effects on relationships, career, and day-to-day functioning. Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) can lead people to distrust or lash out at others, making it difficult to maintain intimate relationships; it can also trigger symptoms such as flashbacks or hyperreactivity that can interfere with a person’s ability to function effectively, personally and/or professionally. Some sufferers turn to drugs to find relief. Symptoms may lessen on their own with time, but there is no guarantee that PTSD will resolve on its own.

Can PTSD come back after treatment?

It is possible for PTSD symptoms to recur months or years after successful treatment. This is because, like most mental health disorders, it is not possible to “cure” PTSD, and stressful life events may cause symptoms to recur in even the most resilient individuals. There is no shame in re-experiencing PTSD symptoms nor in returning to therapy when such relapses occur; indeed, many forms of trauma therapy explicitly encourage periodic “maintenance sessions” to reinforce coping skills and ensure that symptoms stay manageable.