Photo of Chelsea Parkhurst, Counselor in Utah
Chelsea Parkhurst
Counselor, MS, LCMHC, NCC
Verified Verified
Saint George, UT 84790
I am trained in Trauma Focused Cognitive Behavior Therapy (TF-CBT), EMDR, CBT and DBT.
My goal as a mental health therapist is to create a safe place for my clients to tell their story, gain new insight and learn ways to cope with life’s challenges. I enjoy working with young adults and adolescent females who are navigating the unique challenges that can arise during this phase of life. I truly care about each and every one of my clients and am passionate about helping them find their strength from within. I believe we all need someone we can talk to and confide in without the fear of being judged.
I am trained in Trauma Focused Cognitive Behavior Therapy (TF-CBT), EMDR, CBT and DBT.
My goal as a mental health therapist is to create a safe place for my clients to tell their story, gain new insight and learn ways to cope with life’s challenges. I enjoy working with young adults and adolescent females who are navigating the unique challenges that can arise during this phase of life. I truly care about each and every one of my clients and am passionate about helping them find their strength from within. I believe we all need someone we can talk to and confide in without the fear of being judged.
(435) 441-4022 View (435) 441-4022
Photo of Jon Nash, Mental Health Counselor in Utah
Jon Nash
Mental Health Counselor, CMHC
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Orem, UT 84057
I specialize in treating anxiety, depression, and trauma/PTSD.
I love being able to help clients with high levels of anxiety, depression, trauma, and relationship difficulties. I also have several years of experience working with adolescents with high functioning autism and some other developmental delays. If you want to overcome some of the areas in your life that you feel are holding back, then we will work together to find different approaches that can lead to better outcomes.
I specialize in treating anxiety, depression, and trauma/PTSD.
I love being able to help clients with high levels of anxiety, depression, trauma, and relationship difficulties. I also have several years of experience working with adolescents with high functioning autism and some other developmental delays. If you want to overcome some of the areas in your life that you feel are holding back, then we will work together to find different approaches that can lead to better outcomes.
(385) 279-4795 View (385) 279-4795
Photo of Iron Gate Therapy, Counselor in Utah
Iron Gate Therapy
Counselor, CMHC
Verified Verified
Cedar City, UT 84720
I have extensive experience in helping clients navigate through depression, anxiety, abuse, adoption issues, substance abuse, marriage and family issues, and trauma.
While sometimes life seems to move along pretty smoothly, no one is going to escape dealing with challenging circumstances in their life. Whether you might be dealing with something in the past or a present event, relationships with others and the decisions you make are affected by the emotions you are feeling. As a Certified Mental Health Therapist, I believe that when someone is struggling with mental health related issues, seeking help is the best thing you can do for yourself. Emotional issues are often silent and unseen, but seeking help can provide the support and clarity needed to help you move forward.
I have extensive experience in helping clients navigate through depression, anxiety, abuse, adoption issues, substance abuse, marriage and family issues, and trauma.
While sometimes life seems to move along pretty smoothly, no one is going to escape dealing with challenging circumstances in their life. Whether you might be dealing with something in the past or a present event, relationships with others and the decisions you make are affected by the emotions you are feeling. As a Certified Mental Health Therapist, I believe that when someone is struggling with mental health related issues, seeking help is the best thing you can do for yourself. Emotional issues are often silent and unseen, but seeking help can provide the support and clarity needed to help you move forward.
(435) 850-4099 View (435) 850-4099
Photo of Tess Shafer, Counselor in Utah
Tess Shafer
Counselor, LCMHC
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Heber City, UT 84032
I have background with trauma, anxiety, depression, family systems, addiction, attachment, perinatal and postpartum, LGBTQ+, and more.
I love working with all ages, ethnicities, cultures, and diversity. I have focused primarily work with teens and youth, but enjoy everyone. Therapy is a space for individuals to find their own story, the hidden pieces of themselves, and develop understanding. As long as clients come with the intention of healing, growth, and understanding, I'd love to be one to help.
I have background with trauma, anxiety, depression, family systems, addiction, attachment, perinatal and postpartum, LGBTQ+, and more.
I love working with all ages, ethnicities, cultures, and diversity. I have focused primarily work with teens and youth, but enjoy everyone. Therapy is a space for individuals to find their own story, the hidden pieces of themselves, and develop understanding. As long as clients come with the intention of healing, growth, and understanding, I'd love to be one to help.
(435) 485-9816 View (435) 485-9816
Photo of Leesa Burriss, Marriage & Family Therapist in Utah
Leesa Burriss
Marriage & Family Therapist, LMFT
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Sandy, UT 84094
I specialize in attachment and trauma and use a mind/body approach to healing.
Is your anxiety preventing you from doing the things you love? Are your relationships feeling distressed? Do you sometimes feel stuck in life and not sure why you are feeling disconnected, lonely, worried? Are you in a season of change? You may struggle with feelings of low self-worth or imposter syndrome. If this feels like you, I see you. If you have been wanting to feel more present and connected to your life, I can help! I have a passion for working with highly sensitive folks, the creatives, the high achievers who also experience anxiety and perfectionism. I also love working with other therapists.
I specialize in attachment and trauma and use a mind/body approach to healing.
Is your anxiety preventing you from doing the things you love? Are your relationships feeling distressed? Do you sometimes feel stuck in life and not sure why you are feeling disconnected, lonely, worried? Are you in a season of change? You may struggle with feelings of low self-worth or imposter syndrome. If this feels like you, I see you. If you have been wanting to feel more present and connected to your life, I can help! I have a passion for working with highly sensitive folks, the creatives, the high achievers who also experience anxiety and perfectionism. I also love working with other therapists.
(385) 422-8819 View (385) 422-8819
Photo of Kooper Conway, Pre-Licensed Professional in Utah
Kooper Conway
Pre-Licensed Professional, ACMHC-I
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Ogden, UT 84403
I have openings Thursday mornings starting May for new clients. I understand how important it is to be seen, heard, and understood. Taking this step to get help takes a lot of courage, and I’m proud of you for taking it. I am committed to being here for your journey and keeping our space safe as we figure things out together. I provide individual therapy for clients ages 13 and up. I often work with individuals who who have suppressed emotions for most of their life and feel ready for change. I utilize ACT to help clients identify how their values align with their behaviors. I frequently use TF-CBT to help process trauma as well.
I have openings Thursday mornings starting May for new clients. I understand how important it is to be seen, heard, and understood. Taking this step to get help takes a lot of courage, and I’m proud of you for taking it. I am committed to being here for your journey and keeping our space safe as we figure things out together. I provide individual therapy for clients ages 13 and up. I often work with individuals who who have suppressed emotions for most of their life and feel ready for change. I utilize ACT to help clients identify how their values align with their behaviors. I frequently use TF-CBT to help process trauma as well.
(385) 786-6468 View (385) 786-6468
Photo of Utah Psychological Associates, LLC, Psychologist in Utah
Utah Psychological Associates, LLC
Psychologist, PhD
Verified Verified
Provo, UT 84604
Utah Psychological Associates provides mental health services to adolescents, adults and couples. Our therapists have experience with a variety of presenting problems, including behavior problems, depression, anxiety, trauma/abuse, OCD, autism spectrum disorders, relationship problems, addictions, LGBT issues, career counseling, and many others. Additionally, we have psychologists that specialize in performing psychological evaluations for a variety of purposes such as learning disabilities, autism spectrum diagnosis, psychological diagnostic clarification, and court-ordered evaluations.
Utah Psychological Associates provides mental health services to adolescents, adults and couples. Our therapists have experience with a variety of presenting problems, including behavior problems, depression, anxiety, trauma/abuse, OCD, autism spectrum disorders, relationship problems, addictions, LGBT issues, career counseling, and many others. Additionally, we have psychologists that specialize in performing psychological evaluations for a variety of purposes such as learning disabilities, autism spectrum diagnosis, psychological diagnostic clarification, and court-ordered evaluations.
(801) 691-7427 View (801) 691-7427
Photo of Tucker Reynolds, Counselor in Utah
Tucker Reynolds
Counselor, ACMHC
Verified Verified
Lehi, UT 84043
I served a decade in the military, and while serving in combat, I experienced the unedited version of war, trauma, grief, and most importantly: the human condition.
Most of us have the ability and desire to change, but we need help discovering exactly how. Despite our best efforts, we often feel frustrated and in pain from the impact of experiences we don’t fully understand. I use a dynamic yet evidence-based approach to mental healthcare focused on identifying and realigning a person’s beliefs, thoughts, and behaviors. Retain what makes you significant, and support yourself with a more accurate sense of perception and the accompanying skills required to implement. I’m genuinely grateful to be doing my dream job. I have a deep affection for people and would be honored to work with you.
I served a decade in the military, and while serving in combat, I experienced the unedited version of war, trauma, grief, and most importantly: the human condition.
Most of us have the ability and desire to change, but we need help discovering exactly how. Despite our best efforts, we often feel frustrated and in pain from the impact of experiences we don’t fully understand. I use a dynamic yet evidence-based approach to mental healthcare focused on identifying and realigning a person’s beliefs, thoughts, and behaviors. Retain what makes you significant, and support yourself with a more accurate sense of perception and the accompanying skills required to implement. I’m genuinely grateful to be doing my dream job. I have a deep affection for people and would be honored to work with you.
(385) 526-7141 View (385) 526-7141
Photo of Debra Ayer, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Debra Ayer
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, MSW, LCSW
Verified Verified
Park City, UT 84098
I am trained in EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing) and use this modality to treat symptoms of PTSD and address core issues that underlie behavior and self-perception.
My approach to psychotherapy is centered around you, the client. Together we address emotional distress caused by relationship conflict, grief, addiction, sudden/chronic illness, life adjustments and trauma. Each person is unique, therefore we explore your needs and goals to promote growth, empowerment and lasting change. I have experience treating depression, anxiety, PTSD , mood dysregulation, personality disorders, substance abuse and other addictive behaviors. I have worked extensively both with survivors of sexual assault, domestic violence as well as First Responders.
I am trained in EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing) and use this modality to treat symptoms of PTSD and address core issues that underlie behavior and self-perception.
My approach to psychotherapy is centered around you, the client. Together we address emotional distress caused by relationship conflict, grief, addiction, sudden/chronic illness, life adjustments and trauma. Each person is unique, therefore we explore your needs and goals to promote growth, empowerment and lasting change. I have experience treating depression, anxiety, PTSD , mood dysregulation, personality disorders, substance abuse and other addictive behaviors. I have worked extensively both with survivors of sexual assault, domestic violence as well as First Responders.
(801) 396-9353 View (801) 396-9353
Photo of April Stanger, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
April Stanger
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Logan, UT 84321
Hurt is a part of healing. Much like physical wounds, mental and emotional wounds also require attention and proper care in order to heal. However your wounds were acquired (relationships, addiction, trauma, loss, depression, anxiety, etc.) I am here to help you heal. I provide a safe, comfortable and wholly accepting space to help you heal whatever past or present wound that may be hurting you. Healing is possible and you deserve to live life without the pain of unkempt wounds and embrace all that you've overcome.
Hurt is a part of healing. Much like physical wounds, mental and emotional wounds also require attention and proper care in order to heal. However your wounds were acquired (relationships, addiction, trauma, loss, depression, anxiety, etc.) I am here to help you heal. I provide a safe, comfortable and wholly accepting space to help you heal whatever past or present wound that may be hurting you. Healing is possible and you deserve to live life without the pain of unkempt wounds and embrace all that you've overcome.
(435) 260-4035 View (435) 260-4035
Photo of Josie Osborn, Licensed Professional Counselor in Utah
Josie Osborn
Licensed Professional Counselor, MA, LMHC, CMHC
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Payson, UT 84651
I’ve been trained in EMDR, CBT, DBT, and developmental trauma.
My primary approach is seeing each client as a unique individual with intrinsic value, and with the capacity for self-healing. I am committed to helping clients feel safe, heard, seen, and valued. I also understand that seeking therapy is a difficult and sometimes scary decision, and I am eager to meet clients wherever they are in their healing process. I believe that every person is the expert in their own life and the role of therapy is to support and build on someone’s personal strengths while providing a safe place to dive deeper into self-understanding and ultimately achieve healing.
I’ve been trained in EMDR, CBT, DBT, and developmental trauma.
My primary approach is seeing each client as a unique individual with intrinsic value, and with the capacity for self-healing. I am committed to helping clients feel safe, heard, seen, and valued. I also understand that seeking therapy is a difficult and sometimes scary decision, and I am eager to meet clients wherever they are in their healing process. I believe that every person is the expert in their own life and the role of therapy is to support and build on someone’s personal strengths while providing a safe place to dive deeper into self-understanding and ultimately achieve healing.
(385) 233-9451 View (385) 233-9451
Photo of Christine Erickson, Counselor in Utah
Christine Erickson
Counselor, MA, LCMHC, NCC
Verified Verified
3 Endorsed
Saint George, UT 84770
Everyone needs help at times, and that’s okay. I have several years experience working with individuals dealing with chronic anxiety, chronic depression, complex trauma, and issues related to neurodiversity. I’ve worked with girls at the end of high school transitioning to college, as well as adults of multiple genders. I also have many years working with children in different settings, many of whom dealt with multiple diagnoses. Some of these issues include ADHD, OCD, autism, depression, anxiety, and trauma.
Everyone needs help at times, and that’s okay. I have several years experience working with individuals dealing with chronic anxiety, chronic depression, complex trauma, and issues related to neurodiversity. I’ve worked with girls at the end of high school transitioning to college, as well as adults of multiple genders. I also have many years working with children in different settings, many of whom dealt with multiple diagnoses. Some of these issues include ADHD, OCD, autism, depression, anxiety, and trauma.
(435) 238-4514 View (435) 238-4514
Photo of Olivia Friedrichs, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Olivia Friedrichs
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW
Verified Verified
2 Endorsed
I have experience working with anxiety, depression, substance abuse, life transitions, and trauma.
Taking the steps to engage in therapy is brave and requires a lot of courage. Opening up to a stranger in an effort to create a healthier future is no small feat, and I am impressed to know you, whoever you are! My therapeutic philosophy revolves around honoring the incredible self-compassion that it requires to be vulnerable with a therapist. I value individual autonomy and strive to create a space where you feel heard and empowered. I commit to showing up with curiosity and compassion with the intent to help equip you with the everyday bravery it takes to be human.
I have experience working with anxiety, depression, substance abuse, life transitions, and trauma.
Taking the steps to engage in therapy is brave and requires a lot of courage. Opening up to a stranger in an effort to create a healthier future is no small feat, and I am impressed to know you, whoever you are! My therapeutic philosophy revolves around honoring the incredible self-compassion that it requires to be vulnerable with a therapist. I value individual autonomy and strive to create a space where you feel heard and empowered. I commit to showing up with curiosity and compassion with the intent to help equip you with the everyday bravery it takes to be human.
(801) 515-4582 View (801) 515-4582
Photo of Christina Franco, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Christina Franco
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, MSW, LCSW
Verified Verified
Ogden, UT 84403
I want to help you heal from traumatic events you have experienced in your life. I am trained in EMDR treatment. I have helped many clients through EMDR to reduce the cause of stress brought on by trauma. I also have experience in working with those recovering from sexual abuse/ sexual assault.
I want to help you heal from traumatic events you have experienced in your life. I am trained in EMDR treatment. I have helped many clients through EMDR to reduce the cause of stress brought on by trauma. I also have experience in working with those recovering from sexual abuse/ sexual assault.
(385) 442-9581 View (385) 442-9581
Photo of Rebecca Kirschner, Counselor in Utah
Rebecca Kirschner
Counselor, MS, LCMHC, NCC
Verified Verified
Lehi, UT 84043  (Online Only)
When people experience life stressors, life changes, and/or trauma they often find themselves lost and looking for relief. My great passion is to provide healing and relief to the lost looking for therapeutic relief from trauma, depression and stress issues. I have been helping adults, adolescents and children from all walks of life find new, healthier expressions of themselves, to finally find a peaceful wholeness and fulfillment; to be empowered. I specialize in the treatment of trauma, children and adolescent's disorders, Anxiety and depression along with personality disorders. I emphasize mindfulness, emotion regulation, Distress Tolerance and interpersonal relationship skills
When people experience life stressors, life changes, and/or trauma they often find themselves lost and looking for relief. My great passion is to provide healing and relief to the lost looking for therapeutic relief from trauma, depression and stress issues. I have been helping adults, adolescents and children from all walks of life find new, healthier expressions of themselves, to finally find a peaceful wholeness and fulfillment; to be empowered. I specialize in the treatment of trauma, children and adolescent's disorders, Anxiety and depression along with personality disorders. I emphasize mindfulness, emotion regulation, Distress Tolerance and interpersonal relationship skills
(385) 316-6989 View (385) 316-6989
Photo of Brett Blanchard, Counselor in Utah
Brett Blanchard
Counselor, LCMHC
Verified Verified
Kaysville, UT 84037
Our therapists are masters in their field with additional expertise in trauma and PTSD, military, police, and first responders, LGBTQ, addiction, refugees, in addition to techniques like EMDR and Neurofeedback.
Phoenix Rebellion Therapy treats those looking for solutions and new directions in life. Working together, our clients and therapists can find the root of the problem and a way to move forward. We support each other as a team. If you suffer from a minor issue or something more extreme, you could use an experienced ear walking you towards a better solution. Our therapists have expertise treating everything from trauma, torture, and rape, to anxiety, addiction, and depression. We team up with you and find what successfully works in reducing your symptoms and helping you progress in life.
Our therapists are masters in their field with additional expertise in trauma and PTSD, military, police, and first responders, LGBTQ, addiction, refugees, in addition to techniques like EMDR and Neurofeedback.
Phoenix Rebellion Therapy treats those looking for solutions and new directions in life. Working together, our clients and therapists can find the root of the problem and a way to move forward. We support each other as a team. If you suffer from a minor issue or something more extreme, you could use an experienced ear walking you towards a better solution. Our therapists have expertise treating everything from trauma, torture, and rape, to anxiety, addiction, and depression. We team up with you and find what successfully works in reducing your symptoms and helping you progress in life.
(385) 290-4577 x2 View (385) 290-4577 x2
Photo of Madeline Norman, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Madeline Norman
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, CSW
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
American Fork, UT 84003
Areas I focus on are Women's issues, eating disorder recovery, trauma, anxiety, and depression.
If you are reading this, you probably want something to change in your life. Maybe you want to feel more empowered and don’t know where to start. Maybe you are struggling with your relationship with food and body, and every little decision feels crippling. Maybe your anxiety or depression is keeping you from doing the things you care about in your life. Struggling with mental health can feel isolating and sometimes even hopeless. I’m dedicated to providing a safe, collaborative space to help you explore your power and potential. Healing takes hard work and sacrifice, but I will be here with you through it.
Areas I focus on are Women's issues, eating disorder recovery, trauma, anxiety, and depression.
If you are reading this, you probably want something to change in your life. Maybe you want to feel more empowered and don’t know where to start. Maybe you are struggling with your relationship with food and body, and every little decision feels crippling. Maybe your anxiety or depression is keeping you from doing the things you care about in your life. Struggling with mental health can feel isolating and sometimes even hopeless. I’m dedicated to providing a safe, collaborative space to help you explore your power and potential. Healing takes hard work and sacrifice, but I will be here with you through it.
(385) 481-5593 View (385) 481-5593
Photo of Kathy Kinghorn, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Kathy Kinghorn
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW, SAP, CSAT-S, CMAT
Verified Verified
2 Endorsed
Lehi, UT 84043
Healing from sexual addiction or betrayal trauma is best done with a holistic approach.
If you want to get to the "why" of your addiction, get farther from the "want" of your addiction. I specialize in helping individuals gain tools to reduce the "want" and then find space to understand the "why". If you only have the hope for hope, that is a good enough place to start.
Healing from sexual addiction or betrayal trauma is best done with a holistic approach.
If you want to get to the "why" of your addiction, get farther from the "want" of your addiction. I specialize in helping individuals gain tools to reduce the "want" and then find space to understand the "why". If you only have the hope for hope, that is a good enough place to start.
(385) 213-2064 View (385) 213-2064
Photo of Kayce C. Bradley, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Kayce C. Bradley
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, CSW
Verified Verified
3 Endorsed
Logan, UT 84341
I specialize in trauma-informed practice, anxiety, depression, self-worth, problematic sexual behaviors (NOJOS), and working with the LGBTQ+ population.
I have always felt drawn to helping others. This desire led me to pursue an undergraduate degree in Psychology & Child Development from Utah State University & later a Masters in Clinical Social Work from Baylor University. I'm trained in TF-CBT, DBT, Motivational Interviewing, Mindfulness, and Solution-Focused Therapy. I'm here to serve you, to support your goals, to see the best in you, & envision the life you can still create no matter what you’ve been through. My approach to healing begins with helping you build a foundational understanding of how your past experiences continue to impact your present & how you can move forward.
I specialize in trauma-informed practice, anxiety, depression, self-worth, problematic sexual behaviors (NOJOS), and working with the LGBTQ+ population.
I have always felt drawn to helping others. This desire led me to pursue an undergraduate degree in Psychology & Child Development from Utah State University & later a Masters in Clinical Social Work from Baylor University. I'm trained in TF-CBT, DBT, Motivational Interviewing, Mindfulness, and Solution-Focused Therapy. I'm here to serve you, to support your goals, to see the best in you, & envision the life you can still create no matter what you’ve been through. My approach to healing begins with helping you build a foundational understanding of how your past experiences continue to impact your present & how you can move forward.
(435) 774-0151 View (435) 774-0151
Photo of Bryan Rieben, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Utah
Bryan Rieben
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW
Verified Verified
Logan, UT 84321
I have immediate openings and specialize in treating trauma, grief and loss, anxiety/depression, and am trained in EMDR. I provide guidance to address spiritual and/or religious issues, including post-Mormon related struggles. Even though I'm no longer LDS/religious, I respect the religious/spiritual beliefs of all my clients. No judgement is my philosophy.
I have immediate openings and specialize in treating trauma, grief and loss, anxiety/depression, and am trained in EMDR. I provide guidance to address spiritual and/or religious issues, including post-Mormon related struggles. Even though I'm no longer LDS/religious, I respect the religious/spiritual beliefs of all my clients. No judgement is my philosophy.
(435) 291-8764 View (435) 291-8764
Trauma and PTSD Therapists

When should I seek treatment for trauma?

Not everyone who undergoes trauma needs therapy to heal, but many do. If, after experiencing a traumatic event, you find yourself struggling with symptoms such as nightmares, dissociation, irritability, or emotional numbness—especially if these symptoms last more than a month and are severe enough to interfere with your daily functioning—you may benefit from seeking out therapy with a trauma-informed provider.

How long does trauma therapy take?

Different types of therapy for trauma unfold on different timelines. Prolonged exposure therapy and cognitive processing therapy, for example, each take about three months, while trauma-informed CBT may last anywhere from 8 to 25 sessions. Other approaches, especially those that are less structured or that incorporate elements from multiple modalities, may be more open-ended, though many patients report feeling better within the first few months of treatment.

What happens if trauma is left untreated?

Unaddressed trauma can have serious—even devastating—effects on relationships, career, and day-to-day functioning. Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) can lead people to distrust or lash out at others, making it difficult to maintain intimate relationships; it can also trigger symptoms such as flashbacks or hyperreactivity that can interfere with a person’s ability to function effectively, personally and/or professionally. Some sufferers turn to drugs to find relief. Symptoms may lessen on their own with time, but there is no guarantee that PTSD will resolve on its own.

Can PTSD come back after treatment?

It is possible for PTSD symptoms to recur months or years after successful treatment. This is because, like most mental health disorders, it is not possible to “cure” PTSD, and stressful life events may cause symptoms to recur in even the most resilient individuals. There is no shame in re-experiencing PTSD symptoms nor in returning to therapy when such relapses occur; indeed, many forms of trauma therapy explicitly encourage periodic “maintenance sessions” to reinforce coping skills and ensure that symptoms stay manageable.