Photo of E Noel Phoebus, Counselor in Baltimore, MD
E Noel Phoebus
Counselor, LCPC, LGPAT, ATR-P
Verified Verified
Baltimore, MD 21218
As a queer and transgender clinician, my identity informs my work with transgender, non-binary, and gender-expansive identified young people.
I am a queer, nonbinary transmasculine human that uses he/they pronouns. My practice is devoted to creative and collaborative work within a safe and non-threatening environment. I am a clinically trained art therapist and counselor who uses an individualized and trauma-informed approach. I specialize in navigating issues that impact children and adolescents, such as depression, anxiety, risky or self-harming behaviors, stress, ADHD, gender identity, and difficult life transitions. I have experience working in an intensive outpatient setting and now practice individual child and adolescent therapy in a general outpatient setting.
As a queer and transgender clinician, my identity informs my work with transgender, non-binary, and gender-expansive identified young people.
I am a queer, nonbinary transmasculine human that uses he/they pronouns. My practice is devoted to creative and collaborative work within a safe and non-threatening environment. I am a clinically trained art therapist and counselor who uses an individualized and trauma-informed approach. I specialize in navigating issues that impact children and adolescents, such as depression, anxiety, risky or self-harming behaviors, stress, ADHD, gender identity, and difficult life transitions. I have experience working in an intensive outpatient setting and now practice individual child and adolescent therapy in a general outpatient setting.
(410) 337-7772 x6406 View (410) 337-7772 x6406
Photo of Kaleidoscope Wellness and Education Group, LLC, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Baltimore, MD
Kaleidoscope Wellness and Education Group, LLC
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LICSW, LCSW-C, LMSW
Verified Verified
Baltimore, MD 21202  (Online Only)
Kaleidoscope's target market is children and adolescents who identify as Black, Indigenous People of Color (BIPOC), Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer (LGBTQ+) or another underserved and marginalized group and are experiencing difficulty functioning due to mental illness, trauma or a developmental disorder.
Kaleidoscope Wellness and Education Group, LLC (Kaleidoscope) provides mental health services to children, youth and their families with a focus on those who are underserved and marginalized. Kaleidoscope exists to ensure that children and youth, especially those who identify as a member of a minority group, are afforded the tools they need to live abundantly. We help our clients develop strategies and skills that help them combat the difficulties that prevent them functioning optimally day-to-day.
Kaleidoscope's target market is children and adolescents who identify as Black, Indigenous People of Color (BIPOC), Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer (LGBTQ+) or another underserved and marginalized group and are experiencing difficulty functioning due to mental illness, trauma or a developmental disorder.
Kaleidoscope Wellness and Education Group, LLC (Kaleidoscope) provides mental health services to children, youth and their families with a focus on those who are underserved and marginalized. Kaleidoscope exists to ensure that children and youth, especially those who identify as a member of a minority group, are afforded the tools they need to live abundantly. We help our clients develop strategies and skills that help them combat the difficulties that prevent them functioning optimally day-to-day.
(301) 895-9612 View (301) 895-9612
Photo of Missy Linthicum, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor in Baltimore, MD
Missy Linthicum
Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, LCPC, MEd
Verified Verified
Baltimore, MD 21228
As an LCPC in Maryland, I specialize in treating kids and adults who experience varied roadblocks in life. I take a collaborative approach to counseling and therapy, in that you and I will together determine your best treatment, and I have a deep respect for your courage in seeking help. Issues may include anxiety, depression, anger, ADHD, school difficulties, PTSD, relationship concerns, disordered personality traits, women’s issues, addiction, codependency, grief, disordered eating, family of origin difficulties, attachment, LGBTQ, transgender, trauma and abuse, parenting, self-esteem, and career difficulties, among others.
As an LCPC in Maryland, I specialize in treating kids and adults who experience varied roadblocks in life. I take a collaborative approach to counseling and therapy, in that you and I will together determine your best treatment, and I have a deep respect for your courage in seeking help. Issues may include anxiety, depression, anger, ADHD, school difficulties, PTSD, relationship concerns, disordered personality traits, women’s issues, addiction, codependency, grief, disordered eating, family of origin difficulties, attachment, LGBTQ, transgender, trauma and abuse, parenting, self-esteem, and career difficulties, among others.
(410) 834-0868 View (410) 834-0868
Photo of Brianna Veres, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor in Baltimore, MD
Brianna Veres
Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, LCPC
Verified Verified
Baltimore, MD 21212  (Online Only)
As a queer and trans identified therapist, I personally understand how painful it can be to go to someone for support and be met with microaggressions, rejection, or outright hostility because of your marginalized identity. Therapy can be a transformative tool of self-discovery and a place to collaboratively develop a roadmap to a life filled with deep meaning and joy. But if your therapist does not understand or accept crucial parts of who you are, it can be deeply damaging and disheartening. If you have had experiences like these, I may be a good fit to provide you with the culturally competent therapy you deserve.
As a queer and trans identified therapist, I personally understand how painful it can be to go to someone for support and be met with microaggressions, rejection, or outright hostility because of your marginalized identity. Therapy can be a transformative tool of self-discovery and a place to collaboratively develop a roadmap to a life filled with deep meaning and joy. But if your therapist does not understand or accept crucial parts of who you are, it can be deeply damaging and disheartening. If you have had experiences like these, I may be a good fit to provide you with the culturally competent therapy you deserve.
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Photo of Miles George, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor in Baltimore, MD
Miles George
Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, LCPC
Verified Verified
Baltimore, MD 21202  (Online Only)
Waitlist for new clients
I am a trans & queer identified psychotherapist with clinical training influenced by person centered, relational, and family systems theory. I value the importance of providing my clients with unconditional positive regard, empathy, and congruence. I specialize in LGBTQIA+ affirming therapy and use an intersectional lens to ensure my clients are truly seen. I provide compassionate, authentic, and skilled therapy to support and empower my clients. I work from a framework acknowledges how clients’ intersecting identities impact their mental health, and needs within therapy, specifically when it comes to the impact of minority stress.
I am a trans & queer identified psychotherapist with clinical training influenced by person centered, relational, and family systems theory. I value the importance of providing my clients with unconditional positive regard, empathy, and congruence. I specialize in LGBTQIA+ affirming therapy and use an intersectional lens to ensure my clients are truly seen. I provide compassionate, authentic, and skilled therapy to support and empower my clients. I work from a framework acknowledges how clients’ intersecting identities impact their mental health, and needs within therapy, specifically when it comes to the impact of minority stress.
(443) 241-9324 View (443) 241-9324
Photo of Cole Jaeschke, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Baltimore, MD
Cole Jaeschke
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW-C, MSW
Verified Verified
Baltimore, MD 21211  (Online Only)
I welcome all clients who are interested in working on any issues which are interfering with their own happiness, including issues of depression, anxiety, relationship issues, sexuality, gender identity, and adoption/fertility related issues. I work with each client individually to create goals that are purposeful, meaningful, and attainable. I frequently revisit treatment goals, so that clients can reflect their own process and progress in therapy.
I welcome all clients who are interested in working on any issues which are interfering with their own happiness, including issues of depression, anxiety, relationship issues, sexuality, gender identity, and adoption/fertility related issues. I work with each client individually to create goals that are purposeful, meaningful, and attainable. I frequently revisit treatment goals, so that clients can reflect their own process and progress in therapy.
(410) 267-4986 View (410) 267-4986
Photo of Danielle Gleber, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Baltimore, MD
Danielle Gleber
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW-C
Verified Verified
Baltimore, MD 21211
Stress, loneliness, problems with bullying or social media usage, problems in relationships, identity questions ...Life can be too much sometimes! When it feels overwhelming, call in others to be on your team. If you're okay with some dry humor and real talk, we'll probably be a good fit to work together. Whether you're 11 or 111, I have some tricks up my sleeve to help you. There's no shame in admitting when things have gotten beyond what you can handle on your own. It happens to all of us at some point! And you don't have to stay there. There's relief and peace waiting for you.
Stress, loneliness, problems with bullying or social media usage, problems in relationships, identity questions ...Life can be too much sometimes! When it feels overwhelming, call in others to be on your team. If you're okay with some dry humor and real talk, we'll probably be a good fit to work together. Whether you're 11 or 111, I have some tricks up my sleeve to help you. There's no shame in admitting when things have gotten beyond what you can handle on your own. It happens to all of us at some point! And you don't have to stay there. There's relief and peace waiting for you.
(410) 220-4086 View (410) 220-4086
Photo of Matthew Malouf, Psychologist in Baltimore, MD
Matthew Malouf
Psychologist, PhD
Verified Verified
13 Endorsed
Baltimore, MD 21210
NOTE: I currently have a waitlist for new patients (pre-surgical evals may still be scheduled). If you are searching this site, you are probably looking for help for yourself, your family or someone you care about. I know this is an important step and I hope that the information on my listing can assist you in finding what you need. I am a counseling psychologist with a background in the treatment of anxiety, depression and other common mental health concerns and a specialty in LGBTQI issues. I treat adults, couples (Gottman Method), and children/families seeking support with sexuality, gender and/or an intersex/DSD diagnosis.
NOTE: I currently have a waitlist for new patients (pre-surgical evals may still be scheduled). If you are searching this site, you are probably looking for help for yourself, your family or someone you care about. I know this is an important step and I hope that the information on my listing can assist you in finding what you need. I am a counseling psychologist with a background in the treatment of anxiety, depression and other common mental health concerns and a specialty in LGBTQI issues. I treat adults, couples (Gottman Method), and children/families seeking support with sexuality, gender and/or an intersex/DSD diagnosis.
(443) 485-5976 View (443) 485-5976
Photo of Lisa Srok, Pre-Licensed Professional in Baltimore, MD
Lisa Srok
Pre-Licensed Professional, LGPC, LGPAT
Verified Verified
Baltimore, MD 21211
Not sure traditional therapy is for you? Wondering how to let feelings out without getting overwhelmed? How to check that inner voice that's whispering or yelling that you're a fraud, a failure, broken, and all the other harsh things those critical voices like to say? If you wanna try something different in therapy, consider yourself an "out of the box" type of person, creative, sensitive or stoic, I probably have something that will help you! Maybe you're sobercurious, maybe you want to bring your relationship in for a tune up, maybe you're a young person feeling misunderstood and alone. I'm not easily shocked, so bring it on!
Not sure traditional therapy is for you? Wondering how to let feelings out without getting overwhelmed? How to check that inner voice that's whispering or yelling that you're a fraud, a failure, broken, and all the other harsh things those critical voices like to say? If you wanna try something different in therapy, consider yourself an "out of the box" type of person, creative, sensitive or stoic, I probably have something that will help you! Maybe you're sobercurious, maybe you want to bring your relationship in for a tune up, maybe you're a young person feeling misunderstood and alone. I'm not easily shocked, so bring it on!
(410) 817-7058 View (410) 817-7058
Photo of Nikki Falay, Marriage & Family Therapist in Baltimore, MD
Nikki Falay
Marriage & Family Therapist, LCMFT
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Baltimore, MD 21211  (Online Only)
Feeling like your past experiences get in the way of having fulfilling relationships, staying present, or existing free from anxiety or depression can be scary and isolating; especially for those with marginalized identities. As dedicated as you may be to making positive change in your life, sometimes without the right help it can feel like nothing is working or like no improvement is sticking. These points of stuckness often try to drive us further from feeling encouraged or wanting to be vulnerable, but letting someone in who will treat your vulnerabilities with utmost care can be a life changing and growth inducing experience.
Feeling like your past experiences get in the way of having fulfilling relationships, staying present, or existing free from anxiety or depression can be scary and isolating; especially for those with marginalized identities. As dedicated as you may be to making positive change in your life, sometimes without the right help it can feel like nothing is working or like no improvement is sticking. These points of stuckness often try to drive us further from feeling encouraged or wanting to be vulnerable, but letting someone in who will treat your vulnerabilities with utmost care can be a life changing and growth inducing experience.
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Photo of Jen Hodo-Powell, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Baltimore, MD
Jen Hodo-Powell
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW-C
Verified Verified
5 Endorsed
Baltimore, MD 21211  (Online Only)
I have a collaborative and integrative approach to therapy that builds on each individual's inherent strengths, respecting self-determination, and being mindful of the impact of intersectional identities on mental health. I work to provide affirming and generative care with warmth and humor.
I have a collaborative and integrative approach to therapy that builds on each individual's inherent strengths, respecting self-determination, and being mindful of the impact of intersectional identities on mental health. I work to provide affirming and generative care with warmth and humor.
(410) 807-3445 View (410) 807-3445
Photo of Christa K Schmidt, Psychologist in Baltimore, MD
Christa K Schmidt
Psychologist, PhD
Verified Verified
3 Endorsed
Baltimore, MD 21212
I provide therapy services for individuals and couples navigating life transitions, relationship difficulties, and identity concerns. I take a holistic approach, and work with all elements of a client's experience. Additionally, I am culturally-responsive and acknowledge the societal and environmental realities that influence our experience of life and one another. I advocate for my clients' right to pursue health and greater well-being. Additionally, with extensive experience in therapist training and ethical practice, I welcome working with other therapists seeking their own personal counseling or supervision.
I provide therapy services for individuals and couples navigating life transitions, relationship difficulties, and identity concerns. I take a holistic approach, and work with all elements of a client's experience. Additionally, I am culturally-responsive and acknowledge the societal and environmental realities that influence our experience of life and one another. I advocate for my clients' right to pursue health and greater well-being. Additionally, with extensive experience in therapist training and ethical practice, I welcome working with other therapists seeking their own personal counseling or supervision.
(301) 710-6203 View (301) 710-6203
Photo of James Edwardaro Willey, Psychological Associate in Baltimore, MD
James Edwardaro Willey
Psychological Associate, MS
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Baltimore, MD 21218  (Online Only)
Understanding who you are or what you are feeling is difficult when you are not even sure what words to use to describe your experience or what questions to ask yourself. Naming that is a big step. You may put on a mask to navigate the world in order to reduce the pressures you feel from society. High expectations when you were younger may make mistakes seem unacceptable. The journey to explore who you are may seem lonely. You may notice similarities in the relationships you form now with the relationship you have with your family. The early traumas in your life may be triggering you now in ways that are frustrating and upsetting.
Understanding who you are or what you are feeling is difficult when you are not even sure what words to use to describe your experience or what questions to ask yourself. Naming that is a big step. You may put on a mask to navigate the world in order to reduce the pressures you feel from society. High expectations when you were younger may make mistakes seem unacceptable. The journey to explore who you are may seem lonely. You may notice similarities in the relationships you form now with the relationship you have with your family. The early traumas in your life may be triggering you now in ways that are frustrating and upsetting.
(877) 893-5480 View (877) 893-5480
Photo of Alex Shiflett, Counselor in Baltimore, MD
Alex Shiflett
Counselor, LMHC
Verified Verified
3 Endorsed
Baltimore, MD 21218  (Online Only)
I am a dream doula welcoming clients who have specifically been ostracized or misunderstood by the mental health industrial complex. Currently, services geared towards helping are explicitly gate kept by colonist practices, ableist perspectives, carceral state interventions, financial inaccessibility, treatment stigma, and other barriers rooted in the shameful, foundational practices of white supremacy and western culture. My work is specifically political, and intended to help clients cultivate a more liberated life. I curate space for healing as well as dream building.
I am a dream doula welcoming clients who have specifically been ostracized or misunderstood by the mental health industrial complex. Currently, services geared towards helping are explicitly gate kept by colonist practices, ableist perspectives, carceral state interventions, financial inaccessibility, treatment stigma, and other barriers rooted in the shameful, foundational practices of white supremacy and western culture. My work is specifically political, and intended to help clients cultivate a more liberated life. I curate space for healing as well as dream building.
(929) 531-5957 View (929) 531-5957
Photo of Maria Nusser, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor in Baltimore, MD
Maria Nusser
Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, LCPC
Verified Verified
3 Endorsed
Baltimore, MD 21218  (Online Only)
Have you been secretly struggling with burdens trying to ‘grin and bear it’? Have you been traumatized? Feel unloveable or worthless? Does finishing school or keeping a job seem impossible? Are you having trouble connecting with family and friends? Feel like your full potential is unreachable? Or frustrated with life itself? You’re not broken or alone; therapy can be a great tool that can help you find that inner resiliency to keep moving forward without being weighed down by guilt, shame, or judgement. It’s okay to ask for support and help, especially when the world feels like a dumpster fire on top of our own personal battles.
Have you been secretly struggling with burdens trying to ‘grin and bear it’? Have you been traumatized? Feel unloveable or worthless? Does finishing school or keeping a job seem impossible? Are you having trouble connecting with family and friends? Feel like your full potential is unreachable? Or frustrated with life itself? You’re not broken or alone; therapy can be a great tool that can help you find that inner resiliency to keep moving forward without being weighed down by guilt, shame, or judgement. It’s okay to ask for support and help, especially when the world feels like a dumpster fire on top of our own personal battles.
(410) 438-8529 View (410) 438-8529
Photo of Space For Grace, LLC-Renee P Lewis, LCPC, LCADC, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor in Baltimore, MD
Space For Grace, LLC-Renee P Lewis, LCPC, LCADC
Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, LCPC, LCADC, NCC
Verified Verified
Baltimore, MD 21208
Space For Grace, LLC, is a humanistic private practice, which specializes in helping others find their purpose in life and assisting them with moving towards and through the healing processes of life, for a fuller quality of life experience. Beginning March 15, 2021, our office will move to a 5-day work week and will be closed on weekends, to allow for more self-care for our staff, during this time of global reflective healing.
Space For Grace, LLC, is a humanistic private practice, which specializes in helping others find their purpose in life and assisting them with moving towards and through the healing processes of life, for a fuller quality of life experience. Beginning March 15, 2021, our office will move to a 5-day work week and will be closed on weekends, to allow for more self-care for our staff, during this time of global reflective healing.
(410) 705-2418 View (410) 705-2418
Photo of Marlon Tinker, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Baltimore, MD
Marlon Tinker
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW-C, LCADS
Verified Verified
Baltimore, MD 21216
Sometimes in life you encounter problems that overwhelm your ability to cope. The experience can leave you feeling desperate, lonely, and stressed out. I provide a caring and non-judgmental place for you to talk about what is troubling you. I will help you identify the problem, explore solutions, and implement a change plan. I can't promise a perfect life, but I can engage you in a collaborative work alliance where you will have the opportunity to tap into your own power source, identify personal strengths and environmental resources, and identify and implement a plan to not only cope but also to thrive.
Sometimes in life you encounter problems that overwhelm your ability to cope. The experience can leave you feeling desperate, lonely, and stressed out. I provide a caring and non-judgmental place for you to talk about what is troubling you. I will help you identify the problem, explore solutions, and implement a change plan. I can't promise a perfect life, but I can engage you in a collaborative work alliance where you will have the opportunity to tap into your own power source, identify personal strengths and environmental resources, and identify and implement a plan to not only cope but also to thrive.
(410) 709-3886 View (410) 709-3886
Photo of Michael Fell, Counselor in Baltimore, MD
Michael Fell
Counselor, LCPC
Verified Verified
3 Endorsed
Baltimore, MD 21209  (Online Only)
Hello! My name is Michael and I am a therapist with a passion for helping clients overcome mental health challenges, life stressors, and anything else that is interfering with your ability to find happiness and wellness on a daily basis. I believe that all of us are on a journey to become the best versions of ourselves that we can be, and I also know that we sometimes need support and guidance along the way. I enjoy working with clients of all ages, and particular areas of interest and populations I enjoy working with include ADHD (especially adults with ADHD), OCD, grief, depression, and college students.
Hello! My name is Michael and I am a therapist with a passion for helping clients overcome mental health challenges, life stressors, and anything else that is interfering with your ability to find happiness and wellness on a daily basis. I believe that all of us are on a journey to become the best versions of ourselves that we can be, and I also know that we sometimes need support and guidance along the way. I enjoy working with clients of all ages, and particular areas of interest and populations I enjoy working with include ADHD (especially adults with ADHD), OCD, grief, depression, and college students.
(410) 849-6321 View (410) 849-6321
Photo of Diego Llanes, Counselor in Baltimore, MD
Diego Llanes
Counselor, LGPC, NBCC
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Baltimore, MD 21212
Hablo Español! Are you a people pleaser? Would you like to feel more present? Are you feeling unheard or unwanted in your relationships? Do you feel unmotivated? Are you finding it difficult to cope with your environment, your emotions, or your thoughts? Do you feel yourself sinking or want to maintain the progress you have made? Are you grieving a loss? Do you feel as if you have no control over what is going on around you? Progress and taking charge of your healing is possible, admirable, and needed but it is difficult. Allow me to be your guide on this path to more authentic living in accordance with your values and skills.
Hablo Español! Are you a people pleaser? Would you like to feel more present? Are you feeling unheard or unwanted in your relationships? Do you feel unmotivated? Are you finding it difficult to cope with your environment, your emotions, or your thoughts? Do you feel yourself sinking or want to maintain the progress you have made? Are you grieving a loss? Do you feel as if you have no control over what is going on around you? Progress and taking charge of your healing is possible, admirable, and needed but it is difficult. Allow me to be your guide on this path to more authentic living in accordance with your values and skills.
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Photo of Rachel Hettleman, Clinical Social Work/Therapist in Baltimore, MD
Rachel Hettleman
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LMSW
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Baltimore, MD 21211
I love connecting with adults across the lifespan to begin or continue healing processes. I have experience working with adults and teenagers grappling with overwhelming experiences, challenges around mood, sense of self, relationships, shame, anxiety, loneliness, grief, and more. Every part of you is welcome in therapy with me, including the parts that feel the scariest to look at, talk about, and understand. Together, we can use curiosity and compassion to gain insight into where these challenges come from, what your values are, how you want to connect with yourself and others, and what balance and peace might look like for you.
I love connecting with adults across the lifespan to begin or continue healing processes. I have experience working with adults and teenagers grappling with overwhelming experiences, challenges around mood, sense of self, relationships, shame, anxiety, loneliness, grief, and more. Every part of you is welcome in therapy with me, including the parts that feel the scariest to look at, talk about, and understand. Together, we can use curiosity and compassion to gain insight into where these challenges come from, what your values are, how you want to connect with yourself and others, and what balance and peace might look like for you.
(443) 692-8515 View (443) 692-8515
Transgender Therapists

As a gender-diverse individual, why might I want to see a therapist who is also gender diverse?

A trans or gender-diverse client may want to see a therapist who is also trans or gender diverse because the client may feel safer sharing their experiences and more confident that the therapist will understand, validate, and support them. But trans or gender-diverse clients can also benefit from therapy with cisgender therapists; this is a personal decision based on the connection between the client and the therapist, and if that connection is strong, therapy will be successful.

What if I cannot find a therapist who shares my gender identity?

Therapy can still be effective if a therapist does not share a client’s gender identity; a large body of research indicates that the most important factor in successful therapy is the therapeutic alliance. A therapist can also be interviewed for sensitivity and competence on gender identity and expression to ensure they possess appropriate knowledge and skills. Many therapists have excellent training and extensive experience working with gender-diverse clients, and that expertise can be invaluable despite a therapist not sharing the same firsthand experiences.

How can I recognize a good therapist for working with gender-diverse clients?

An experienced therapist should be able to help clients explore their gender identity and expression, alleviate discomfort related to their gender identity, treat mental health challenges and trauma, address existing relationships and communication with family members and loved ones, and determine the next steps pertaining to nonmedical or medical gender-affirming interventions. To recognize a good therapist, clients can ask about these topics and explore their comfort and connection with the clinician.

How might I inquire about a therapist’s experience working with transgender clients?

Clients should feel comfortable asking therapists directly about their experience working with transgender or gender-diverse clientele. For example, clients may ask about the therapist’s training and education with regard to gender identity, how many trans clients they’ve worked with in the past, and what sorts of matters were discussed. You may wish to inquire how a therapist specifically supports the needs of transgender clients or clients questioning their gender identity. A good clinician who is nonetheless not the right fit for you is often happy to make referrals to others based on the concerns you articulate in a preliminary conversation.