Transgender Therapists in Louisiana

Photo of Dylan Thomas Kolesa, MS, PLPC, Pre-Licensed Professional
Dylan Thomas Kolesa
Pre-Licensed Professional, MS, PLPC
Verified Verified
Online Only
I focus on topics such as identity, marginalization, interpersonal issues, major life transitions, and trauma. I am passionate about working with LGBTQIA+ individuals and their loved ones, with a specialization in transgender and gender-expansive experiences. I am also dedicated to being sex positive, poly friendly, and kink aware. Additionally, I welcome you to use your creative practices as another means to explore yourself and your experiences within a therapeutic environment. I recognize that at times it may be easier to reach the heart of your emotional life through creative expression.
I focus on topics such as identity, marginalization, interpersonal issues, major life transitions, and trauma. I am passionate about working with LGBTQIA+ individuals and their loved ones, with a specialization in transgender and gender-expansive experiences. I am also dedicated to being sex positive, poly friendly, and kink aware. Additionally, I welcome you to use your creative practices as another means to explore yourself and your experiences within a therapeutic environment. I recognize that at times it may be easier to reach the heart of your emotional life through creative expression.
(504) 233-6532 View (504) 233-6532
Photo of Bobbi Kizer, PhD, Psychologist
Bobbi Kizer
Psychologist, PhD
Verified Verified
New Orleans, LA 70124
Please contact me if you are interested in therapy or transgender services via videoconference.
I believe that healing can happen through the process of empathic and supportive counseling. I work with mood issues, personality disorders, grief, substance use and much more. I utilize a culturally sensitive and holistic psychodynamic style of therapy. This approach encourages development in all areas of life (relationships, thoughts, behaviors, emotions, careers, etc.), and pays special attention to unconscious factors and cultural identity (race, religion, sexuality, gender, disability, etc).
Please contact me if you are interested in therapy or transgender services via videoconference.
I believe that healing can happen through the process of empathic and supportive counseling. I work with mood issues, personality disorders, grief, substance use and much more. I utilize a culturally sensitive and holistic psychodynamic style of therapy. This approach encourages development in all areas of life (relationships, thoughts, behaviors, emotions, careers, etc.), and pays special attention to unconscious factors and cultural identity (race, religion, sexuality, gender, disability, etc).
(504) 265-1485 View (504) 265-1485
Photo of Melanie F. Mann, LCSW, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Melanie F. Mann
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW
Verified Verified
Online Only
I am a queer, autistic therapist. I primarily work with LGBTQIA+ folks, autistic/adhd folks, and survivors of child abuse, neglect, sexual trauma, and domestic violence. I am trained to provide WPATH mental health assessments and letter writing for gender affirming care for transgender folks. I do not accept insurance. My full fee is $125 per 50-minute session. I do have a wait list for sliding scale slots at a reduced fee. Please reach out if you are struggling.
I am a queer, autistic therapist. I primarily work with LGBTQIA+ folks, autistic/adhd folks, and survivors of child abuse, neglect, sexual trauma, and domestic violence. I am trained to provide WPATH mental health assessments and letter writing for gender affirming care for transgender folks. I do not accept insurance. My full fee is $125 per 50-minute session. I do have a wait list for sliding scale slots at a reduced fee. Please reach out if you are struggling.
(985) 218-6367 View (985) 218-6367
Photo of Shannon E. Smith, MA, LPC-S, NCC, Licensed Professional Counselor
Shannon E. Smith
Licensed Professional Counselor, MA, LPC-S, NCC
Verified Verified
5 Endorsed
Baton Rouge, LA 70809
Waitlist for new clients
My areas of interest include personality & identity development, LGBTQIA concerns (including gender dysphoria, gender exploration & gender transition), depression & anxiety, grief & loss, sexual trauma, religious trauma, and men's mental health.
I know how it feels to contemplate going to therapy, and I always found it both scary and intimidating. That’s why I aim to make the process as relaxed and down-to-earth as possible. I show up to sessions as my authentic self, and I want you to do the same. As a person-centered and affirming therapist, I believe that we all deserve self-love, healthy and fulfilling relationships, and a life of purpose and joy. I believe that we can heal from past traumas, find our own power, and experience alignment in mind, body, and spirit. The work isn't easy, but I bring humor and humanity into it, and I value the therapeutic relationship.
My areas of interest include personality & identity development, LGBTQIA concerns (including gender dysphoria, gender exploration & gender transition), depression & anxiety, grief & loss, sexual trauma, religious trauma, and men's mental health.
I know how it feels to contemplate going to therapy, and I always found it both scary and intimidating. That’s why I aim to make the process as relaxed and down-to-earth as possible. I show up to sessions as my authentic self, and I want you to do the same. As a person-centered and affirming therapist, I believe that we all deserve self-love, healthy and fulfilling relationships, and a life of purpose and joy. I believe that we can heal from past traumas, find our own power, and experience alignment in mind, body, and spirit. The work isn't easy, but I bring humor and humanity into it, and I value the therapeutic relationship.
(225) 351-2731 View (225) 351-2731
Photo of Victoria Thomas, MS, LPC, TCT, Licensed Professional Counselor
Victoria Thomas
Licensed Professional Counselor, MS, LPC, TCT
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Online Only
I am credentialed as a Transgender Care Therapist by the International Transgender Certification Association (ITCA).
Want to walk through life as your most authentic self? It may feel like a maze of obstacles standing in the way of transitioning and achieving gender euphoria. I believe you have the power to create meaning through examining the steps necessary to achieve your authentic self. I will guide you across this journey by alleviating gender stress, building gender resilience, securing social supports, navigating the coming out process, and focusing on embodiment goals. Together, we can create a world where you are empowered to express your authentic self with freedom from restriction, aspersion, or rejection.
I am credentialed as a Transgender Care Therapist by the International Transgender Certification Association (ITCA).
Want to walk through life as your most authentic self? It may feel like a maze of obstacles standing in the way of transitioning and achieving gender euphoria. I believe you have the power to create meaning through examining the steps necessary to achieve your authentic self. I will guide you across this journey by alleviating gender stress, building gender resilience, securing social supports, navigating the coming out process, and focusing on embodiment goals. Together, we can create a world where you are empowered to express your authentic self with freedom from restriction, aspersion, or rejection.
(337) 202-2760 View (337) 202-2760
Photo of Carlo Cuneo, MA, MSW, LCSW, CST, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Carlo Cuneo
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, MA, MSW, LCSW, CST
Verified Verified
4 Endorsed
Baton Rouge, LA 70809
Services are consistent with standards established by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH).
My practice is limited to the treatment of sexual and gender concerns and to treatment of the concerns of couples and other romantic / sexual groupings. My focus is on your growth and well-being. My office will become a place in which it is safe to speak about your life and concerns. You will find acceptance, support and challenge. I have earned Master's degrees in Psychology (1990) and Social Work (MSW - 1998). To date, my clients have received over 30,000 hours of psychotherapy services. I look forward to meeting you and beginning our work together.
Services are consistent with standards established by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH).
My practice is limited to the treatment of sexual and gender concerns and to treatment of the concerns of couples and other romantic / sexual groupings. My focus is on your growth and well-being. My office will become a place in which it is safe to speak about your life and concerns. You will find acceptance, support and challenge. I have earned Master's degrees in Psychology (1990) and Social Work (MSW - 1998). To date, my clients have received over 30,000 hours of psychotherapy services. I look forward to meeting you and beginning our work together.
(225) 239-2735 View (225) 239-2735
Photo of Alaiyia Nicole Williams - BACH Therapeutic Counseling Services, MSW, LCSW, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
BACH Therapeutic Counseling Services
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, MSW, LCSW
Verified Verified
Online Only
Williams is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker/Psychotherapist who specializes in working with Transgender and Gender-Non-Conforming individuals; as well as therapeutic interventions specific to issues often faced by individuals of the LGBTQ+ Community.
Feeling overwhelmed? Are you having feelings of nervousness and sadness related to how the world perceives you? Do you feel unheard, as if no one understands the issues you face or the traumas you endure? Living in a world that is sometimes unkind to those of us who make up marginalized populations can have long-lasting effects on one’s mental health and overall quality of life. If you have ever experienced any of these feelings, Ms. Alaiyia N. Williams, is the perfect fit for your therapy and counseling needs. She has been practicing as a licensed clinician for nearly 10 years in a variety of settings and in various states.
Williams is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker/Psychotherapist who specializes in working with Transgender and Gender-Non-Conforming individuals; as well as therapeutic interventions specific to issues often faced by individuals of the LGBTQ+ Community.
Feeling overwhelmed? Are you having feelings of nervousness and sadness related to how the world perceives you? Do you feel unheard, as if no one understands the issues you face or the traumas you endure? Living in a world that is sometimes unkind to those of us who make up marginalized populations can have long-lasting effects on one’s mental health and overall quality of life. If you have ever experienced any of these feelings, Ms. Alaiyia N. Williams, is the perfect fit for your therapy and counseling needs. She has been practicing as a licensed clinician for nearly 10 years in a variety of settings and in various states.
(504) 553-3997 View (504) 553-3997
Photo of Jennifer Ladd, LPC-A, NCC, RYT-275
Jennifer Ladd
LPC-A, NCC, RYT-275
Verified Verified
2 Endorsed
Prairieville, LA 70769
I am trained in Brainspotting levels 1 & 2 and have experience and/or additional training in navigating grief and loss, trauma recovery, LGBTQAI+ concerns (including gender dysphoria, gender exploration & gender transition), depression, anxiety, relational concerns, and stress management.
I'm Jen and my pronouns are she/they! I am an LPC-A, NCC and a registered yoga teacher (RYT-275). I utilize an existential approach to therapy that incorporates mindfulness based practices and focuses on your individual needs and goals for therapy. My practice is non-judgmental, trauma-informed, and collaborative in an effort to cultivate trust, safety, and respect. I value all dimensions of human diversity and I am an accomplice to the LGBTQAI+ community.
I am trained in Brainspotting levels 1 & 2 and have experience and/or additional training in navigating grief and loss, trauma recovery, LGBTQAI+ concerns (including gender dysphoria, gender exploration & gender transition), depression, anxiety, relational concerns, and stress management.
I'm Jen and my pronouns are she/they! I am an LPC-A, NCC and a registered yoga teacher (RYT-275). I utilize an existential approach to therapy that incorporates mindfulness based practices and focuses on your individual needs and goals for therapy. My practice is non-judgmental, trauma-informed, and collaborative in an effort to cultivate trust, safety, and respect. I value all dimensions of human diversity and I am an accomplice to the LGBTQAI+ community.
(225) 523-6519 View (225) 523-6519
Photo of Aaron Edwards, MEd, LPC, Licensed Professional Counselor
Aaron Edwards
Licensed Professional Counselor, MEd, LPC
Verified Verified
Online Only
Is anxiety your constant companion? Are you experiencing gender dysphoria, struggling with your sexual orientation, and/or have a sense that everyone else gets it but you don’t? I can help you discover the answers to these questions and more. My specialties are: Anxiety Disorders, LGBQ and Transgender issues associated with transitioning and Asperger’s Syndrome. For 30+ years I have helped people from all walks of life discover and manifest their most authentic selves and achieve their intentions. I see clients in office and by Telemed. If you choose video counseling, I find it to be equally effective as face-to-face sessions.
Is anxiety your constant companion? Are you experiencing gender dysphoria, struggling with your sexual orientation, and/or have a sense that everyone else gets it but you don’t? I can help you discover the answers to these questions and more. My specialties are: Anxiety Disorders, LGBQ and Transgender issues associated with transitioning and Asperger’s Syndrome. For 30+ years I have helped people from all walks of life discover and manifest their most authentic selves and achieve their intentions. I see clients in office and by Telemed. If you choose video counseling, I find it to be equally effective as face-to-face sessions.
(337) 943-0234 View (337) 943-0234
Photo of Finley Rose, LMFT, LPC, MS, MA, Marriage & Family Therapist
Finley Rose
Marriage & Family Therapist, LMFT, LPC, MS, MA
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Online Only
It is my belief that you already possess everything you need to be fulfilled and happy moving forward, let’s work together on discovering those things inside of you! My teachings taught me that a collaborative approach to therapy allows the client to be an expert of themselves, and myself to work with the client on finding solutions to the client's struggles.
It is my belief that you already possess everything you need to be fulfilled and happy moving forward, let’s work together on discovering those things inside of you! My teachings taught me that a collaborative approach to therapy allows the client to be an expert of themselves, and myself to work with the client on finding solutions to the client's struggles.
(971) 366-2717 View (971) 366-2717
Photo of Cypress Atlas, MS, PLPC, Pre-Licensed Professional
Cypress Atlas
Pre-Licensed Professional, MS, PLPC
Verified Verified
5 Endorsed
Online Only
You deserve care that centers you as the expert on your own life. I'm committed to assisting individuals and couples of all backgrounds in finding personal growth through Narrative Therapy and EMDR. At the core of my practice is a deep respect for diversity and social justice, and I am committed to providing a safe and affirming space for individuals of all cultural backgrounds and LGBTQ+ identities. I am also part of the LGBTQ+ community.
You deserve care that centers you as the expert on your own life. I'm committed to assisting individuals and couples of all backgrounds in finding personal growth through Narrative Therapy and EMDR. At the core of my practice is a deep respect for diversity and social justice, and I am committed to providing a safe and affirming space for individuals of all cultural backgrounds and LGBTQ+ identities. I am also part of the LGBTQ+ community.
(504) 386-5735 View (504) 386-5735
Photo of Jenn Vigue, LCSW, BACS, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Jenn Vigue
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW, BACS
Verified Verified
6 Endorsed
New Orleans, LA 70119
I am Licensed Clinical Social Worker located in New Orleans, LA. I am licensed and able to see Maine residents for therapy virtually as well. Working from a trauma-informed lens, I work to facilitate a collaborative and empowering approach to counseling. My theoretical approach stems from a radical social justice paradigm with the incorporation of liberation-based healing practices, expressive arts therapy, feminist, and relational-cultural theory. I work with both individuals and couples, offering a supportive space for personal and relational growth.
I am Licensed Clinical Social Worker located in New Orleans, LA. I am licensed and able to see Maine residents for therapy virtually as well. Working from a trauma-informed lens, I work to facilitate a collaborative and empowering approach to counseling. My theoretical approach stems from a radical social justice paradigm with the incorporation of liberation-based healing practices, expressive arts therapy, feminist, and relational-cultural theory. I work with both individuals and couples, offering a supportive space for personal and relational growth.
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Photo of Harter March, LPC, Licensed Professional Counselor
Harter March
Licensed Professional Counselor, LPC
Verified Verified
New Orleans, LA 70126
Therapy is a process of self-discovery more than it is anything else. It is a space to set your goals on your terms. It is a space where your whole self can be present, seen, and valued. It is not a space for anyone's values but your own. My role is to be a tourist you show around and asks questions. In this space you can unpack, explore, and repack your entire life in a way that feels true to who you are. It is to help shift focus away from who you are supposed to be, and focus on who you are. It is a truly wonderous, painful, joyful, tear filled, and extremely rewarding process to go through. Enjoy the journey with or without me.
Therapy is a process of self-discovery more than it is anything else. It is a space to set your goals on your terms. It is a space where your whole self can be present, seen, and valued. It is not a space for anyone's values but your own. My role is to be a tourist you show around and asks questions. In this space you can unpack, explore, and repack your entire life in a way that feels true to who you are. It is to help shift focus away from who you are supposed to be, and focus on who you are. It is a truly wonderous, painful, joyful, tear filled, and extremely rewarding process to go through. Enjoy the journey with or without me.
(504) 370-8541 View (504) 370-8541
Photo of Emmie Saux, LCSW, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Emmie Saux
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW
Verified Verified
3 Endorsed
New Orleans, LA 70117
I began my social work career working with survivors of sexual violence. Often, in the wake of a traumatic experience, the best that I could offer was a calm, grounding presence and a listening ear. I continue to feel honored to be that presence for survivors of all forms of trauma and to be able to validate their experiences, emotions, and struggles. I have worked extensively with survivors of religious trauma, primarily from Christian faiths in the South, and I look forward to supporting folks divesting from the LDS church as I begin to serve clients in Utah.
I began my social work career working with survivors of sexual violence. Often, in the wake of a traumatic experience, the best that I could offer was a calm, grounding presence and a listening ear. I continue to feel honored to be that presence for survivors of all forms of trauma and to be able to validate their experiences, emotions, and struggles. I have worked extensively with survivors of religious trauma, primarily from Christian faiths in the South, and I look forward to supporting folks divesting from the LDS church as I begin to serve clients in Utah.
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Photo of Becca Bowers, MA, PLPC, Counselor
Becca Bowers
Counselor, MA, PLPC
Verified Verified
2 Endorsed
Lafayette, LA 70503
Are you struggling with your body image? I specialize in body image and eating disorders. Are you struggling with triggers and with trauma resurfacing? I work with trauma survivors, and lgbtq+ struggles with individuals and families. I affirm seeking truth and working through the struggle to communicate. I will help you connect to yourself, and to people around you. Therapy equips you with healthy ways of identifying, processing, and expressing your needs and emotions.
Are you struggling with your body image? I specialize in body image and eating disorders. Are you struggling with triggers and with trauma resurfacing? I work with trauma survivors, and lgbtq+ struggles with individuals and families. I affirm seeking truth and working through the struggle to communicate. I will help you connect to yourself, and to people around you. Therapy equips you with healthy ways of identifying, processing, and expressing your needs and emotions.
(337) 448-4923 View (337) 448-4923
Photo of Hollie B French, LPC, ATR, Art Therapist
Hollie B French
Art Therapist, LPC, ATR
Verified Verified
3 Endorsed
Lafayette, LA 70503
Do you function fairly well in most ways, but have some nagging issues (i.e. you struggle to trust, have a history of unhealthy or unsatisfying intimate relationships, trouble concentrating) that may be the result of past trauma? Do you want ways to process and heal that don't have to involve talking about the specifics of what happened to you? Do you have a child who needs some extra support navigating life changes (i.e. parents separated/divorced, school changes, moving homes, loss of loved one)? I have tools to address a number of issues that get in the way of better functioning and a more satisfying life.
Do you function fairly well in most ways, but have some nagging issues (i.e. you struggle to trust, have a history of unhealthy or unsatisfying intimate relationships, trouble concentrating) that may be the result of past trauma? Do you want ways to process and heal that don't have to involve talking about the specifics of what happened to you? Do you have a child who needs some extra support navigating life changes (i.e. parents separated/divorced, school changes, moving homes, loss of loved one)? I have tools to address a number of issues that get in the way of better functioning and a more satisfying life.
(337) 376-0776 View (337) 376-0776
Photo of Samantha Carey, MS, PLPC
Samantha Carey
MS, PLPC
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Online Only
Are you feeling stuck and wanting to make a change? Reaching out for help is a brave and necessary first step in a healing journey. Together we can put pieces of the puzzle together, develop skills, and find healing. I would be honored to walk alongside you on this journey.
Are you feeling stuck and wanting to make a change? Reaching out for help is a brave and necessary first step in a healing journey. Together we can put pieces of the puzzle together, develop skills, and find healing. I would be honored to walk alongside you on this journey.
(225) 535-8988 View (225) 535-8988
Photo of Janina Mayeux, PhD, Psychologist
Janina Mayeux
Psychologist, PhD
Verified Verified
Baton Rouge, LA 70808
What is meaningful and important to you? This is different for everyone and can change for anyone in a given day. My approach to therapy is guided by the things you hold as valuable, and what they mean for you; all while using a trauma-informed and queer affirming framework. I strive to provide a safe space without judgment. I have worked with people of all ages who have survived trauma & I also have experience working with LGBTQ+ folks in health related issues, coming out, violent experiences, internalized homophobia/transphobia, transitioning, adverse military experiences, & building resilience, etc.
What is meaningful and important to you? This is different for everyone and can change for anyone in a given day. My approach to therapy is guided by the things you hold as valuable, and what they mean for you; all while using a trauma-informed and queer affirming framework. I strive to provide a safe space without judgment. I have worked with people of all ages who have survived trauma & I also have experience working with LGBTQ+ folks in health related issues, coming out, violent experiences, internalized homophobia/transphobia, transitioning, adverse military experiences, & building resilience, etc.
(225) 435-8792 View (225) 435-8792
Photo of Jen Hayes, LCSW, BACS, CST, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Jen Hayes
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW, BACS, CST
Verified Verified
3 Endorsed
New Orleans, LA 70119
Hello, my name is Jen and I am a Certified Sex Therapist providing individual and couples/relationship therapy in New Orleans (in-person and video sessions). I specialize in sex therapy, couples work, services for the sex work population, and gender-affirming therapeutic services for members of the LGBTQ+ community. I also offer services to those that do not identify as members of the LGBTQ+ community, providing services such as assessment and treatment for anxiety, depression, OCD, and more. All are welcome.
Hello, my name is Jen and I am a Certified Sex Therapist providing individual and couples/relationship therapy in New Orleans (in-person and video sessions). I specialize in sex therapy, couples work, services for the sex work population, and gender-affirming therapeutic services for members of the LGBTQ+ community. I also offer services to those that do not identify as members of the LGBTQ+ community, providing services such as assessment and treatment for anxiety, depression, OCD, and more. All are welcome.
(504) 380-9856 View (504) 380-9856
Photo of Catherine Vicknair, MS, LPC, NCC, CCTP, Licensed Professional Counselor
Catherine Vicknair
Licensed Professional Counselor, MS, LPC, NCC, CCTP
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Baton Rouge, LA 70816
Waitlist for new clients
My name is Catherine Vicknair (she/her/hers) and I work with adults in dealing with the struggles life throws at them. With all of my clients, my goal is to work with them mutually on developing solutions and providing them with the tools they need to live confident, independent, and successful lives (#liveyourbestlife). I’m most passionate about working with clients in the LGBTQ+ community and related issues, but I also enjoy working with clients that have other struggles such as anxiety, depression, grief, relationship issues, anger, coping skills, life transitions, self-esteem, stress, emotional control, etc.
My name is Catherine Vicknair (she/her/hers) and I work with adults in dealing with the struggles life throws at them. With all of my clients, my goal is to work with them mutually on developing solutions and providing them with the tools they need to live confident, independent, and successful lives (#liveyourbestlife). I’m most passionate about working with clients in the LGBTQ+ community and related issues, but I also enjoy working with clients that have other struggles such as anxiety, depression, grief, relationship issues, anger, coping skills, life transitions, self-esteem, stress, emotional control, etc.
(225) 435-5357 View (225) 435-5357
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Transgender Therapists

As a gender-diverse individual, why might I want to see a therapist who is also gender diverse?

A trans or gender-diverse client may want to see a therapist who is also trans or gender diverse because the client may feel safer sharing their experiences and more confident that the therapist will understand, validate, and support them. But trans or gender-diverse clients can also benefit from therapy with cisgender therapists; this is a personal decision based on the connection between the client and the therapist, and if that connection is strong, therapy will be successful.

What if I cannot find a therapist who shares my gender identity?

Therapy can still be effective if a therapist does not share a client’s gender identity; a large body of research indicates that the most important factor in successful therapy is the therapeutic alliance. A therapist can also be interviewed for sensitivity and competence on gender identity and expression to ensure they possess appropriate knowledge and skills. Many therapists have excellent training and extensive experience working with gender-diverse clients, and that expertise can be invaluable despite a therapist not sharing the same firsthand experiences.

How can I recognize a good therapist for working with gender-diverse clients?

An experienced therapist should be able to help clients explore their gender identity and expression, alleviate discomfort related to their gender identity, treat mental health challenges and trauma, address existing relationships and communication with family members and loved ones, and determine the next steps pertaining to nonmedical or medical gender-affirming interventions. To recognize a good therapist, clients can ask about these topics and explore their comfort and connection with the clinician.

How might I inquire about a therapist’s experience working with transgender clients?

Clients should feel comfortable asking therapists directly about their experience working with transgender or gender-diverse clientele. For example, clients may ask about the therapist’s training and education with regard to gender identity, how many trans clients they’ve worked with in the past, and what sorts of matters were discussed. You may wish to inquire how a therapist specifically supports the needs of transgender clients or clients questioning their gender identity. A good clinician who is nonetheless not the right fit for you is often happy to make referrals to others based on the concerns you articulate in a preliminary conversation.