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Of course, people in long term relationship do not need to get married. I personnally would not care if my partner would not want to get married with me after year living together, BUT i would really care if he does not want to make a decision with regard to having kids. Marriage is just a contractual commitment. Having kids is a real, perpetual bond betweent two persons. If you two are in your mi thirties I would find incredibly egoistic from your partner to ask you to wait, a little bit, not sure how long, soon or maybe not too soon, for a simple biological reason: you may be too old to get kids. You maybe be too old to run after them when they will be 10 or so, and maybe too old to have a chance to see your grandchild. Of course, if you do not care having kids, problem solved, and you can stay happily unmarried and kidless until the end of your life. But I would not try to find argument to defend someone incapable to understand this and make a decision after years of live together. It is not being a terrorist to ask for some consideration on something that matters to you. Oh and I left the person I was leaving with for 10 years, after having wait 4 years to be ready to commit to have kids (he told me "soon", I said ok. 4 years later, I was 37 and I decided I could not wait any longer. What a terrorist I have been :-) )
If I'm being honest, the ultimatum wasn’t a real ultimatum.
After five years of dating, I told my boyfriend that if he didn’t propose by Christmas, we were over. At the time, I considered this less a threat and more a way to expedite the inevitable—marriage, family, an otherwise perfect union. I was inspired by a friend of mine, who had made a similar, albeit less eloquent demand to shit or get off the pot to her now-husband. In her case, it had proven a successful strategy.
That my boyfriend wouldn’t choose me and marriage was unthinkable, unconscionable, unbelievable—and yet that’s exactly what happened. On the final day of the ultimatum, he presented me not with a ring and a proposal, but the promise of one day soon. When I expressed my disappointment, he chided me for giving him an ultimatum at all. He saw me as an emotional terrorist holding our relationship hostage—and like the U.S. government, he did not negotiate with terrorists.
It didn’t matter that countless times before, he had actually said he wanted us to get married and or that he couldn’t imagine a future without me. Nor did he acknowledge the fact that we were quickly approaching our mid-30s, nearing the end of my prime childbearing years. It was irrelevant that he had already hinted at a proposal the year prior. To him, none of these were good reasons. They were for me.
Don't Threaten Me
As much as I’d like to play the victim in this situation, it is 100 percent my choice to stay in this relationship. And I have made my share of mistakes, the most egregious of which was presenting him with the ultimatum in the first place. Talk radio host Laura Schlessinger writes on her website, “The reason most ultimatums don’t work is that the person making it is not ready to follow through.” In other words, the only rule of ultimatums is to make sure you’re willing to follow through.
Clearly, I wasn't.
A few lines later, Schlessinger adds: “One of the dumber ultimatums I hear people make is, ‘If you don’t marry me, I’m leaving.’ It’s just ridiculous. Who wants to get married to someone they have to threaten into marrying?”
Like I said, I’ve made my share of mistakes.
It’s been about nine months since my demands were not met. They still have not been met. We’ve engaged in dozens of fights and quarrels—the particularly bad ones escalate to days of silence or camping out on the couch. We are still together, but our situation is tense and tentative and has all the fun of living by an active volcano.
Love Without Marriage
A couple years ago, I wrote about my disappointment in not being married yet. The piece resonated with other women in long-term relationships with loving partners who just couldn’t seem to take their relationship to the next, legal level. I received—and still receive—emails from women asking me if I’m married yet and how long I was willing to wait. I answer no, and I don’t know.
I’ve looked to science, and asked relationship experts and friends both married and unmarried for better answers. What I’ve found is that there isn’t one. When it comes to your relationship, only you and your partner can decide what’s right and wrong. How can a third party, even in his or her infinite wisdom, ever fully grasp or understand what goes on either of your hearts?
They can’t. No one can—except maybe someone who’s going through it too.
Enter Abby*, a 31-year-old from Alberta, Canada, and the first woman I’ve met in a romantic situation that resembles mine. Abby reached out to me after she read my first article and shared with me her own situation: After nearly 15 years with her boyfriend—including a decade living together—the prospect of marriage is still nowhere in sight. Out of fascination and, perhaps, fear, I knew I had to learn how and why she chooses to stay in this relationship, despite her obvious desire and his obvious reluctance to get married.
Abby met her boyfriend in high school. He was one year younger than her but she knew right away that she “didn’t want to be with anyone else.” Still it wasn’t until their mid-20s, several years into their relationship, that she started thinking about wedding bells, though it seemed like she was the only one. “He has never come out and said he doesn’t want to get married. He has said that he would like to get married but that it’s not something he has to do with his life,” she says.
While her boyfriend is open to talking about marriage, Abby says, he does not like to linger on the subject. And she doesn’t press him either: “I feel scared to ask why. Maybe I’m afraid of what the answer might be.”
Abby and her boyfriend have shared major life events, including buying a home together, going on vacations, and adopting a dog. They’ve also supported one another through two economic recessions. These are all healthy, normal hallmarks of being in a committed relationship, right? At least this is what she tells friends and family who have been “breathing down [her] back weekly for the last five years” wondering why she still isn't married.
She tells me it has been several years since she started voicing to her boyfriend how much she would like to get married. He hasn’t wavered, but she continues to wait. And she’ll wait longer if she has to:
“As cliche as it is, [I’d wait] forever. I think after maybe about five more years, I would just be okay with not being married somehow. Or I would get used to it. The endgame for me is to be with him no matter what...I have never considered ending things and never will.”
To Abby, her boyfriend is more important than a wedding, a marriage, and a piece of paper that says they’re legally bound. Why? “Besides this one thing, we have a very fulfilled relationship. We have gone through so many things together and bring out the best in each other," she says. "He complements me like no one else could."
Maybe that’s enough. Who’s to say that marriage is the best or only option? Look at the divorce rate. Look at how many people marry the wrong person, over and over again. Yet society puts a stigma on those of us who aren’t married, as friends and family just add to the stress with constant inquiries: “What’s wrong with you? What’s wrong with him?” I am deeply familiar with this line of questioning.
But is there something truly wrong with us? If we are in an otherwise happy, fulfilling, and committed relationship, is there still something bad or unhealthy about it? After all, isn’t that essentially what a marriage is supposed to be?
* Names have been changed for privacy.
Follow me @thisjenki.
Well said! I was in a similar
Well said! I was in a similar predicament. Because if kids are in the picture for a woman, it is better for her to find a more suitable partner with the same goal.
No one has to do anything
-----"Do people in long-term relationships need to get married?"
No one has to do anything.
But remember the consequences of any choice you make in life. And there will be ones for either choice you make in this arena too.
There are certain legal rights granted to people who do marry, and they are quite numerous (from the way you own property, to rights to pensions/retirement accounts/social security/insurance and a host of other logistical issues). At times, operating together as a couple without those legal rights can be an issue, but people do find ways to work around them. However, if those rights aren't important, then is no need to marry to gain access to them.
I think the most important aspect here is to make an informed decision. What will you gain (or lose) by remaining unmarried, and what do you gain (or lose) by marrying. Either choice you make there will be both gains and losses.
Two Long Term Disappointments
I have one thing to say to young women - do not waste time on men who can't commit. If you want marriage, family, commitment, don't stay with someone who vaguely says, 'Maybe some day.' Many nice men will be available when you are young. Don't pass them by. Deep down you know the type of men who won't commit. Don't settle for for a life of half-fulfilled dreams. These non-commited relationships leave you anxious and with low self-esteem. Be strong and diligent in your search. Don't accept behaviors that don't meet your expectations. Someone who is habitually late, leers at other women, disappears for long periods of time, blames you for their mistakes and criticizes mercilessly don't deserve your time. You may not NEED to get married. But you have the right to kick them to the curb if marriage and family is what you want.
Control Controlling Men
I 100% agree. You already know you want marriage and its important to you. If its not as important to him that should have been a discussion when you began your romance. If its been too wishy washy and he does not seem to know what he wants and when is reasonable then you are wasting your time. Find a man who knows what he wants and wants the same as you. Otherwise he is just trying to control you and has made it about himself. When men know you won't leave anyway, they won't try harder. Why? When they don't have to! Stop spoiling him. He is sticking with you because you are a catch. And if you are a catch - there are wonderful men just waiting for the chance to marry someone special like you. The grass can be greener. It just may not happen overnight and it takes effort to seek out someone new. If you are not happy and not having your bucket list fulfilled I wouldn't be sticking around, you will be controlled by him the rest of your life in some form or another. I know I am a catch. I am a dime ;) My ex just messed up and I have also been waiting too long with uncertainty. We split and it is painful, my heartaches, but its not permanent. I already am talking to someone who future talks and means what he is saying more than my ex did. And he is younger and better looking. Men like my ex will always be like this because we keep letting them have their way. Our dads don't chase them down these if they don't treat us right. Men these days have nothing to fear and no reason to try hard. Women have to have more love for ourselves, stop giving men what they want and not getting what you want in return. We have to band together and make them work for our love. Not just give it away. Ever notice dating trends amongst men? They know how to operate as a pack and they make their rules and do things certain ways and then men in other Cities are suddenly doing the same to get females to do what they want without trying hard. Woman need to do that. Set our own rules and we all stick with it. We have something they want ladies never forget that power!
THANK YOU TWO LONG TERM DISAPPINTMENTS!!
@ TWO LONG TERM DISAPOINTMENTS-
I just recently turned 26 a couple of months ago and within the last year of my life have experienced the most pain/turmoil medically and also found the most joy and love I never thought possible during this difficult time in life. I felt that I had found the man I've been searching for, my best friend, and partner in life. He was my rock through the toughest experience I've ever had to endure and a beautiful comfort I never knew existed before him. With all of that said, I absolutely believe in the institution of marriage and come from a very loving home with parents that have been married for 33 years that I have the utmost admiration and respect for and hope that I one day would be so lucky to have a love as beautiful and strong as their's. I thought if we had made it through "sickness and health" already together at such a young age and stage of our budding relationship that there was absolutely no obstical or challenge too difficult that we wouldn't be able to get through together. Oh, how I was so wrong. I had chosen someone who was amazing for the moment but was never going to emotionally invest in me forever or long term as much as I hoped and prayed for him to. It didn't matter how much I loved him, he loved himself more.
I want to thank you for your warning to young women out there. Every sentence you wrote is true. If there is ever any doubt, it is for a reason and you should always listen to that inner voice inside of you. We have our intuition for a reason. There ARE men out there who are going to commit to you and love you for who are and have the same goals and morals you have, it's all about loving yourself enough and respecting yourself enough to put in the effort and time not to settle for less than your worth. As hard as it may be to walk away from someone you genuinely love and have planned your future around, it will be even more heart breaking to live your life for years with someone who will always love themselves more than they love you.
-K
Look in the mirror
Obviously, from reading what you've written, it is clear YOU love YOURSELF more as well. Your desire to control the man in your life is no less self-serving and selfish than his desire NOT to be.
Perhaps HIS intuition is better than you think. I certainly think so. You and some of the other women here are so typical of the toxic female syndrome.
You state that YOU planned a future...what about him? In a world where men have almost NO rights at all (try seeing what happens when a man and wife separate and divorce - the court nearly always gives the store away to the wife, even if SHE is the one who wants the divorce), the idea that there is something wrong with HIM because he does not want to marry YOU tells me much about your character - or rather, the lack of it.
Angry much?
Men have fewer rights than women? Toxic Female Syndrome? This is hilarious! Bitter, party of one, your table is ready! :')
Anonymous wrote:Obviously, from reading what you've written, it is clear YOU love YOURSELF more as well. Your desire to control the man in your life is no less self-serving and selfish than his desire NOT to be.
Perhaps HIS intuition is better than you think. I certainly think so. You and some of the other women here are so typical of the toxic female syndrome.
You state that YOU planned a future...what about him? In a world where men have almost NO rights at all (try seeing what happens when a man and wife separate and divorce - the court nearly always gives the store away to the wife, even if SHE is the one who wants the divorce), the idea that there is something wrong with HIM because he does not want to marry YOU tells me much about your character - or rather, the lack of it.
tom
you couldnt be further from the truth. I experienced it quite different than you. I said what I wanted to say underneath. Ja courts take men to the cleaners, but again, there are women out there who can and will assist men IF they are willing to pull their weight as well. But most wont. Toxic people men and women are everywhere in workforce, relationships everywhere but this is about STRINGING ALONG for years and its not good for anyone at all as what it does, is to DESTROY hope, DESTROY trust, DESTROY forming a bond and why is that? Its because women are emotionally wired and to string her along is to destroy her trust in men in general. Because MOST MEN after a divorce is emotionally unavailable but too afraid to admit it. Solution? Men should thus then stay clear from women UNTIL they are healed properly without running around declaring women are toxic....and visa versa
Jen, bravely move on.
I've been in the same situation. The reason I didn't leave is because I was afraid. Of everything. The anguish, the explanations, and worse, that I had waited so long I'd left the optimal space for marriage and children behind me. I only wish I hadn't prolonged the torment, because I was so wrong. I'm 37, and finally have the man and future I could only have dreamed of. And guess what? It happened quickly. I ache for you, but I think what you've detailed is what you already know but are too confused and fearful to admit- this man isn't someone you should give the benefit of one more day too. What a shame. On him.
I had a similar experience,
I had a similar experience, Melissa. It was the most difficult decision of my life to leave my love of 6 years because of his inability to commit to me. I stayed out of fear. I reasoned that it was okay to stay because I was "happy" and "wanted no one else" for a really long time. It wasn't until I got out that I realized what a profound effect it had on my life, energy and self-esteem. I am glad the "end" was quick, and I got out. And am now with a man that values me and is ready to commit to me.
what does marriage mean?
Your piece really resonated with me and raised a really important and interesting question of what it means to be "married".
There is what is means to be married from a legal standpoint and what it means to be married from an emotional standpoint. I am married, symbolically not legally. It was a mutual decision. No need to bring the government into our romantic relationship. Yet, being bf/gf just didn't feel committed enough for us. So we got engaged, had a wedding (or commitment ceremony as some purists for the legal definition of marriage would - and have - insist), exchanged rings, got a witnessed certificate of our merging that has no legal binding, and call each other husband and wife. To me this non-legal marriage holds as much emotional weight as a legal marriage and as much commitment. Yet, nothing is different as when we are bf/gf. We made plans to be together in the long-term, start a family together, go through life milestones together now just as before.
So my response to your question "do people in long-term relationships need to get married?" is no. Like someone else said, people don't need to do anything. But what long-term relationships do need is that both people in the relationship be on the same page regarding their levels of commitment and feelings of (emotional, financial, legal) security. I think those two ingredients tend to be associated with marriage.
So the real question is do you want to get married 1) to be legally married with all the legal protection, 2) to get of social stigma and get others off your back, or 3) reflecting some deeper concern or insecurity about the lack of commitment from your bf?
Regarding giving ultimatums, I completely agree with do not give an ultimatum without being able to follow through. I have given an ultimatum before to an 5-year ex-bf for more progress in our relationship and sadly had to follow through. Turns out that was the best thing I did for myself.
Marriage Matters
Dating is not marriage, and if you’re not married, you’re just dating. Everyone is free to marry or not, but don’t expect most people to take your relationship seriously as mere cohabitants.
It is a needy or insecure woman who will let a man squander her youth without committing to marriage and children, assuming those are important goals for the woman. Don’t ignore the warning signs when a man won’t commit after a year or two of supposedly being in love. If he loves you, he will not ignore your biology, and leave you in relationship limbo. There are certain things in life that are not negotiable; delaying child-bearing being the most unnegotiable.
Move on. There are other men out there...better men. If you want marriage and motherhood, you need a man who is anxious to create a family with you, not one who wants you to sit on the sidelines with him until (a) he’s finally certain of what he wants, or (b) someone he thinks is better comes along.
Until you’re married, you’re just playing house.
You need a love coach
Girl - I feel your pain.. I felt that before with my ex.. And I hired a love coach named Rori Raye.. She changed my life.. Check her out because she will help you to truly love yourself enough to attract the man who wants to make you his wife - no ifs ands or butts.. If it's this man, great; but it could be someone better for you. You might not know it; but you could be contributing to him not wanting to get married to you with your behavior. Rori helped me undo all of that and I inspired my then sweetheart to become my now husband. Best wishes!!
Get the ball in YOUR court
I'll never understand why so many men don't want to put a ring on it despite the fact that 90% of their relationship is as if they were married (cohabitation, monogamous, property sharing)..so have a big party and make it official; if not you probably shouldn't stay together since he's not being respectful of your wishes as he clearly understands your need to be married.
I too played the game, breaking up a few times before the drawn out proposal. I meant it when I broke it off and when he came back I almost didn't want it anymore. Probably because I didn't trust him and was my ultimatum actually giving me a partner that truly matched me best? His proposal wasn't something he planned & looked forward to; it was a last ditch effort in case he was throwing away "the one" or the last "one" he'd want to be with? Lack luster? It was; I deserved better. We both did.
In The Same Boat
I'll be 33 at the end of this year. My boyfriend just turned 35. Summer of 2017 will be 10 years together.
He told me he thought he was ready when he finished his master's in 2011. I moved so I could finish my bachelor's and he came with me. He said he just wanted to find a job, get settled, then he was going to ask. 2012 became a nightmare year for him. He could find a job, and he was beginning to think the Master's Degree was for nothing. So he moved back home to try and salvage his professional life.
Recently we went through a lot of crap. Crappy jobs, crappy move to a crappy city in a crappy state. Nothing was going right like we had thought when we packed everything up in 2015 and moved for jobs in our fields that required the degrees we earned.
We got into several fights about kids and marriage. He never wanted kids and I was fine with that. Kids wont make or break me. I just never want to be a single mom. But he had it in his head I never want kids when I have never been serious when I have said that. I joke a lot about it because I see a lot of monsters, but you all have heard it, "it's different when they are yours". I would like to believe that. Then he started to say he never wants to get married because he knows we would fall into the tax bracket that would kill us each year at tax time. I totally get that, saw the data, and agree. The government loves to do this to people. I'm more about the legal benefits like if something happens to me or him, if we have kids, I want us to all have the same last name, and I want his last name. I found a way around the marriage thing so I could get what I want all while giving him what he wants, no wedding and no government bounding marriage. I don't want a wedding. Im not close with my family nor is he with his. A wedding wouldnt be for us, and I wiuld rather spend that money on us. But I told him I wanted a ring and when he was ready he could ask me to take his last name rather than ask me to marry him.
I love him, but Im not sure if he is on the same page with me. If he loves me, and Ive found a way to give him exactly what he wants all while getting what I want, why is there still a hold up? Price of the ring isnt an issue cus everything I want and have showed him is under $200. Am I wasting my time with someone who really doesn't love me and is buying time until something.... anything better comes along (not necessarily another woman when I say this)?
Your own gut
Yes you are wasting your time. Not because I say so. But because you know so. You know you have decreased your price so far and he still won't buy. He has what he wants so why should he "commit" more. Our grandmothers knew a thing or two no matter how we modern girls like to think to the contary. Men are intrinsically attracted to what they can't have or to the woman who values themself and is a cut above the rest. You are a cut above- but, you are the one who doesn't know it. Spend some time getting to know yourself again. Explore other friendships. Pour your passion into rediscovering what you really want at this point in time. Marriage isn't really about the legal relationship- it's about the sacred. And for all your statements to the contrary- it's what you may really be after. The One who can't live without you and wants the world to know it. Very best wishes to you.. You desrve it!
"He told me he thought he was
"He told me he thought he was ready when he finished his master's in 2011. I moved so I could finish my bachelor's and he came with me. He said he just wanted to find a job, get settled, then he was going to ask. 2012 became a nightmare year for him. He could find a job, and he was beginning to think the Master's Degree was for nothing. So he moved back home to try and salvage his professional life."
"I love him, but Im not sure if he is on the same page with me. If he loves me, and Ive found a way to give him exactly what he wants all while getting what I want, why is there still a hold up?"
--------------------------------------------------------------
Those reasons - need financial stability first, I want to get my career on track, find the right job - those are all classic excuses to postpone marriage. CLASSIC. Every girl should know this.
There's a hold up because you're not "The One." Ouch. I know it stings. After 10 years a man knows you very well enough to be sure if he wants to marry you or not. There's nothing left to assess - you've seen each other at your best and your worst. You're wondering when the ring is coming but frankly, he's not. Plus, when his life fell apart he moved back home? Is he not even living with you? That's NOT what couples do! You're not 20-somethings trying to find your way in the world. You're 30-somethings who should be finding stability by now. And you're not REALLY getting everything you want until that ring is on your finger.
You have your answer - you're just in massive denial. Men propose to women they want to marry. He doesn't want to marry you. Are you going to waste another 5 or 10 years before you accept it? Honestly, this is the kind of conversation you should've had with yourself at Year # 5 in the relationship.
Take it from someone older. Get out now and find the man who will commit. It becomes MUCH, MUCH harder to find commitment after 40. Trust me. The whole game shifts drastically because men know single women over 40 are far more desperate so men then hold ALL the cards. You've still got your youth. Don't waste it on a man who frankly sounds like he can't get his shit together.
Ambivalent men who won't commit
Hi Jen,
If you are really looking to be married (by which your article clearly states the case that you are ) then your boyfriend of 5 years is not the One. Believe it or not, the mistake women make is NOT telling the man that they would like a proposal by such and such a date which, by the way, after 5 YEARS of dating you earned the right to ask and how where your relationship is going, rather, their mistake is cohabiting with a guy before he proposes. Yes, cohabitation. When a woman agrees to move in with a man she is giving away her power because deep down men instinctively know that women have a lot more to lose (time! ) in the mating game than they do. They also know that they have more dating options than we women do in numbers abd so by us moving in with them we women basically throw our options out the window. We choose them by moving in with them but THEY DON'T CHOOSE US. To them we are just live-in whores for their convenience, we give them sex, food, all the trimmings of a wife with little to no actual work, commitment, or reciprocation on their part. Even if the women only want a little sausage instead of the whole pig, it's irrelevant because the day you move in with a man without him officially committing to you via engagement ring or walking you down the marriage aisle, he always thinks that he gets the milk for free without having to pay for the cow. It seems to me that your boyfriend is stringing you along until someone better comes along, he knows his chances of finding someone else are very high. Believe me, if a man truly wants to be with you for the long-term he will initiate by putting the ring on it before the subject of living together even comes up, that is if he sees you as a woman of value. Jen, I would quit waiting on this piece of sausage guy you call 'boyfriend' (wasting your time), break up with him, and spend your time finding a man who not only wants to marry you but whom you also find attractive and kind. A tall order but in the long run the juicy steak is much better sustenance for your health and happiness than a piece of sausage. Next time save the cohabitation until you at least have the engagement ring on finger.
HJNTIY
I hope this will save some of your precious time time ladies. Your man will one day get married but it may not be to you aka he's just not that into you. Please read the book and don't make excuses for yourself
Lulu
Lulu
No need for snarkiness here...
While times have changed, I agree some things stay the same...meaning that Book which I loathed in the 90s has many good points.
HOWEVER, Times have changed and cohabitation is often more about economics as in you have no other options & that's good and bad news as far as "getting to know each other"
The main point is a woman's value isn't from her mate. It's from herself. Until that sinks in--we are lost as a gender.
Let me explain
Hi I was blunt but didn't mean it in any other way. I simply wanted to summarise but it seems that I need to explain myself to not be misunderstood.
I've been in the exact same situation. It's until us women decide to do the right thing by our own values, nothing will change and we will continue to live wondering if we're good enough or if there is more of our life we can put on hold for someone else and hoping things will change. You're playing with precious biological time which we don't have ample of. By just waiting you will continue to suffer in silence.
My friend never believed in marriage but recently proposed because he understood how important marriage and family is to his girlfriend and he did it willingly. And trust me, he's the sheldon cooper of the modern world.
Re HJNTIY, I just wanted to break it down to the basics that if you're on a different page with your man and he has no desires to be on your page, he just doesn't want you enough. Truth hurts and no one likes rejection but it sure beats waiting like a second class citizen when you deserve so much more.
He's putting his own needs above yours so it's time to love yourself enough to walk away from a toxic situation where both parties can grow resentment.
Whoa
In Abby's case, he is being straight up stupid. Unless the laws in Canada are very different from the U.S., and if I'm wrong, apologies, then they would likely be considered common law married, but are they able to get many of the benefits that a marriage license allows? After this many years, why is he being so stubborn as to allow a silly piece of paper prevent him from gaining so many more benefits? I hope he has a good reason other than "just because".
If you can tolerate the fact
If you can tolerate the fact that he is essentially still waiting it out until something better comes along then I suppose it's healthy.
Harsh truth
Anonymous is right. If you're together over 3 years and there is not even an engagement he's keeping a tiny sliver of option open to move on from you without the hassle of a divorce.
It's really tragic that people don't realize that after 3 years or so there's not too much left to discover about someone. You know each other really well. There's not a lot of mystery left.
And if you've waited 10 years for a ring, then that's just an epic waste of your life.
Yeah, it will hurt like hell when you leave but it's better than that low-level but persistent angst of wondering for years & years more of when he will marry you.
I sympathize with you
I can sympathize with you because, like you, I'm also dating a man who has yet to pop that question.
He's 39, divorced with 2 kids.
I'm 32, never married and no kids.
We have been dating for 4yrs and we still live in our own separate homes.
I have a close relationship with his children and his family and vice versa.
We have our ups and down.
When we first started dating, I asked him about his feelings on getting married again and having more children...
He was all for it and still is, but just like in your situation, "soon" does not provide a tangible timeframe.
I have also (in subtle ways) given ultimatums, which have not made our relationship advance to the "next level".
It is frustrating because you see yourself with that person, you invest your time in that person and more importantly you want to officialize your relationship with that person.
What to do? I'm still trying to figure out myself.
There are times when I think I can be ok without marriage but then there are times I feel like I'm giving up on something that I want just to be with him.
Only you can know what to do in your situation.
Think about your future and how you want to spend your days.
Don't compare your relationship to others.
If you truly feel in your heart that you want marriage. Have an honest conversation with your partner as to why marriage is important to you. Don't give him an ultimatum. If he doesn't ease your worries and you feel like you made no progress in your conversation with him.
Plan your next move without telling him.
Leave or stay.
Do YOU. Whatever that is for you.
Best of luck!
Reply to Daniela
You mentioned that Jen shouldn't give her boyfriend an
ultimatum. Yet, she should plan her next move without
telling him if he doesn't ease her worries. If they've been
together for years, why would she do something like that?
The interesting point here is, even if she did plan a move
without telling him, and the decision was to leave the
relationship, her boyfriend will still find himself faced with an ultimatum. Either he accepts that she's gone or he goes
after her and asks her to marry him IF she's willing to take
him back. I felt you gave pretty wise advice up until you
mentioned planning an important relationship decision
between her and her boyfriend without him knowing
anything about it.
wising up
It's not about the ultimatum being terrorism. It's about informing the other partner that you can no longer afford to priortise them in your life if they won't commit to you. And I'm not saying that in a judgemental way! So far from it. I had children without being married and although I was very relieved I could walk away from his selfishness without additional bureaucracy, his initial reluctance to get married just painted a general picture. Later, years later, I fell for a man who was very present in my life, kind, supportive, funny, the perfect boyfriend, except, he didn't want to label it etc, so I walked away. I missed him but I felt clarity afterwards, and he did not come after me. I won't be anybody's grey area now. That leads to being single a lot! But still, don't let yourself be parked in a grey area.
It's about wanting the best for each other...
I understand how this dilemma feels. When you love someone so much you will sacrifice your principles for them- you know you're in for some sleepless nights one way or another.
I was in a ltr a year ago that ended because I kept pushing for a commitment. I felt that I was seeking an answer to some unspoken questions more than anything. I wanted to know how devoted my partner was to me. I wanted to know if I could depend on him being there if I was going through tough times- or when I aged - or if we had relationship problems ... I couldn't tell BC he was really emotionally unavailable and he became upset when we had to discuss anything that involved conflict or commitment.
I've learned that my need for commitment is valid and manditory in a LTR. I only want to be with someone who isn't using me as a place holder while the search continues for the "next" best thing... That person broke my heart because I wasn't important enough to him- even After all the good times we shared. He took up with a much younger woman soon after. I hope she doesn't waste too much time on someone so fickle and broken.
Follow your heart even if it means living through a broken heart - it is always right.
As the child of a couple who
As the child of a couple who decided to never marry (well, my dad married my mom 7 mos. before he died at 80) I will only say think twice before having children out of wedlock.
My Father's death has been pure hell for my Mom and not just because he isn't around anymore. They were together 52 years. Try telling that to lawyers when one dies without a will and there you are with a marriage certificate a whole 7 months old. No social security. You have to be married at least a year.
Everything was separate. This has been hell for me and I wish he would have married her years ago so this would have been hers without all the mess.
It is a selfish decision for a man to reap all the benefits of marriage without the legal responsibilities of a wife. A man who won't protect the woman he loves with that piece of paper has never really considered what may happen after they have played house without the legal binding.
It is truly a mess.
I will tell you after the experience of my own parents, this would have never been an option for me. If my husband had not married me, he would have lived without me.
Yes, I am bitter. Had an entire childhood if this. Ladies, do what you will, but please leave children out of it.
This reads quite painful
The long term legal realities you spell out so well.
People do need to be aware of said realities. So many are under the impression that once they live together for x amount of years - they will be considered "common law". Not so - at least in the USA. Only a small handful of states recognize common law, and no amount of living together can compensate for the laws that govern marriage, laws of survivorship, etc., entitlements to future social security, government pensions, retirement assets, property owned, and on and on. The legal act of marriage opens up benefits and entitlements that are not realized with living together.
People need to make informed decisions (whether they chose to marry or not and the long term impacts of either choice).
Response to Child Result
"It is a selfish decision for a man to reap all the benefits of marriage without the legal responsibilities of a wife. A man who won't protect the woman he loves with that piece of paper has never really considered what may happen after they have played house without the legal binding."
-----------------------------------------------------------
This sums it up PERFECTLY.
Sad thing is, women these days seem to be ok living with a man and acting like a wife thinking it is the natural path to marriage. It's often not. A lot of guys in this day & age are happy just to live together and not marry but women live with men and hope for a ring. Then it becomes a why buy the cow when you get the milk for free situation. And then the years pass and the wondering never ceases.
Golden Rule: Don't live with someone unless you're engaged.
Marriage
I would say do not live with a man unless you are married to him.
Made him commit
Being denied marriage is like a rejection, especially when one person wants it and the other person doesnt. I dont believe any person should have to deny themselves marriage or change their beliefs on it because of their partner. If it is something you truely believe needs to happen to live your relationship to its fullest potential than stand your ground.
wild idea
here is a thought; why don't the ladies propose to their boyfriends? it is not the 1950s anymore.
i popped the question to my guy of 5 years and he said, "yes." 8 years on and we are still going strong.
Agree with wild idea
I agree with wild idea. Why are women in 2016 still so dependent on the man to be the one to have to 'decide' and determine if the couple is going to get married or not and the woman is then left 'waiting'? This does not make sense in our time era. It seems like an archaic, patriarchal system and that it would be helpful for women to update it.
Marriage is important
I do not agree that marriage is just a piece of paper. To myself and many couples I know it is a symbol of eternity. Sure divorce rates are high but I don't think most people commit to marriage with that in mind.
If a partner can't commit to the next legal step then it is time to examine why and make an exit plan if you aren't okay with the reasons.
You offer no challenge
Two questions to consider:
1) Why do you want to be married?
2) How long can you forego your desires before resentment sets in?
You two are not in love. If both of you cannot resolve something this meaningful to you, how can you expect to survive marriage?
But why would the guy marry
But why would the guy marry any of the ladies from these stories if she is with him nevertheless? Of course you should leave him, you clearly don't have love for him and how could he respect you if you won't follow through your 'promise'? He will never make that investment since he has you for free anyways.
May-December affair?
I know I'm probably being hasty but my boyfriend is 5 years younger than me. So, I had to ask if he had any plans for the future, our future. He was the first to talk about marriage, hinting about it even. It came as a shock to me because I've stopped believing in marriage or even dreaming about it. I asked him quite straightforwardly if he wanted to marry me. "One day. Someday." He said.
I tried to get over my issues with marriage and opened up to the idea again. He still talks about it so I got encouraged. Then the talk of babies came. All of a sudden he didn't want to talk about both marriage and babies.
I asked him directly about those things again. This time, "someday, maybe." Was his response.
It alarmed me. I guess it was bad that i kept pressing him about it. But i found out some horrible truths. He made me hope for things he didn't want to actually commit to. He was just entertaining the idea. Yes, he's dating to find a wife but apparently, I'm not her. Probably. He talked of options.
I was devastated.
It didn't help that his mother gave him a little "pep talk". Or so he called it. The entire thing questioned my ability to keep a marriage. My position in the family, middle child, and the relationship I had with my parents. It wasn't really all that warm and good. We're pretty distant. And I'm not talking about physical distance.
By now, I was frustrated. Mad.
And...well I couldn't stop from exploding. I tried ending it with him but he still doesn't want to for reasons that frustrated me even more.
There's no more reason to try and work it out. He still wants to drag the relationship on anyway. I don't know anymore.
What did you do?
Dear Veronica, what did you do in the end? Did you leave?
I would say take a time-out and explore if you are okay with continuing with the current state of your relationship. Until you decide that you are, you won't be happy. There is no point in trying to change his mind, because that is totally in his hands and not within your control. So your only choice to be happy is that either you accept the status quo now or don't, and then you leave the rest to destiny. But to get clarity on that I feel that people first-and-foremost need space for self-reflecting.
Could not disagree more
I am so disappointed. I read this site since a long time already and I can't believe my eyes reading this article. Relationship is always a matter of choice from both parties. If you are looking for something you don't get, share your expectations, but do not threaten someone into marriage. If it does not happen within the time you would expect, leave. How would you feel when it happens after such a scenario? How will you feel years later knowing what brought you into that marriage? How long do you think such type of commitment will last?
Women don't always want to
Women don't always want to commit either! I was one of them. In a relationship with a man for 8 years who constantly wanted to get married and I didn't....at that time. I just wasn't ready. He finally moved on and it was sad but I understood he wanted more than I could provide. I eventually did get married but not until I was 39. I think the most important thing is for people to be 100% honest about how they feel about commitment. You shouldn't be afraid of giving an ultimatum but you do need to follow it through. The proper way would be not to say "If you don't marry me I'm going to leave you" but say "I want to get married in the next year or whatever timeframe is exceptable to you". And then take it from there.
response to Roxanna
You're the exception, honey. This article is not about you. This article is about women who WANT to get married. Think outside yourself, ok?
Patriarchy?
Doesn't this piece clearly show how patriarchal our societies are..it just seems that women are left at the mercy of their male partners for committment, social security and marriage ..and why shud that be...also, why shud a woman show the desperation to get married just because of societal norms ?
Things like outlook on
Things like outlook on marriage and kids should be discussed if a relationship gets more serious.
I never wanted kids. If a guy did, there was no point in a relationship - I certainly didn't want him to compromise his desires and I knew unequivocally that I didn't want them. Ditto with a man with young children.
I dated a man who had issues with marriage - gave it some time bc sometimes a relationship can change a perspective. I never gave an ultimatum, just said I'm looking to share something he didn't value. Loved him but loved myself more.
A relationship is about shared values. If you don't value the same things that are significant, why bother?
How long you you wait - reply/comment
Keep the person in your life who is your best friend and with you on a daily basis. Marriage is only paper. However, if they are not with you on a daily basis. Move on. I spent 17 years with my best friend who did marry me. He was with me all the time. Everyone just accepted that we were married because we were that close. I would wait another 17 years if I could (he passed away of lung cancer). The point is.. I was blessed to be with my best friend, love of my life for 17 years! If they are not your best friend, leave them and find your best friend.
Change of heart
When my boyfriend and I met he spoke of marriage right away which at first scared me. We were very happy together and I already felt I had met the love of my life but I felt it was an early mention at three weeks of dating. He mentioned marriage and brought it up lightly (to my now growing delight) over the first two years we lived together but now does not bring it up at all. I'm now the one who tries to discuss it because I want to marry him and am growing tired of supporting him emotionally daily (he has bad anxiety) and visiting his family every summer without being his wife. He is now apprehensive about marriage and feels we have problems and issues to work on before considering marriage. In contrast, I accept our arguments and differences, his and my personal issues and I want to marry him as we are, imperfect but in love, loving and supportive of one another. He doesn't feel comfortable even broaching the subject of marriage now. I feel increasingly sad all of the time. Finding this thread was very helpful as I suspect I know the answer to my question. Can I stay in a relationship (almost four years now) with someone who perhaps doesn't see me as the One? My self esteem seems to have decreased and my overall feeling of well-being in myself within the context of our live-in relationship. But I feel strong and happy with my friends and family. I didn't think marriage was important to me but I now realize my everyday role as wife without being his wife. I believe I have answered my own question but I'll post this here for discourse's sake.
I should add that I've only
I should add that I've only brought it up subtly but have just recently become impatient and voiced my desire to marry more clearly. He has made plans to spend a month with his family this summer, preferring that I come but will travel alone otherwise, and I feel we should be making future plans together. I need to be able to envision a future.
7 years
I will never understand men. Its a game for them. Here I am 59 years dating him 7 years and NOTHING. I got to a point where I had enough and told him perhaps its time we both start seeing others. I do not have to live out of suitcases weekend after weekend you know. I mean lets get real. He was the one who kept cheating and now all of sudden he is the one who wants to settle ON HIS TERMS move in together and no marriage. Why should I do this? No women has a right to anything in the event something goes wrong. So he can get all free for the time being? I actually started to distance myself now and he picked up on this now I am good enough for phone calls etc. He says he doesnt want to loose me oh ja? Then tell me WHAT does he want? A side burner each time he needs one? And me? Nothing. I agree NO ULTIMATUM will cut it, I tried that one too. I think the best is to keep quiet and to start distancing oneself and just like that disappear from his life for good. Well that is the plan for soon. Let him then get old by himself.
Let me assure all women out there WE are the prize not the other way around. Most men are INCAPABLE growing old by themselves due to the life they led before and pensions isnt that good. Imagine them still have to keep up with maintenance medical bills all the normal stuff as they CANNOT DO IT THEY CANT. I know this sounds heartless, but let them then suck it up as most come around like this one once they SEE you are not around so much anymore. They have excuses, well we can TOO dish out some nasty excuses. Long gone are the days women NEED men for financial support. There are men out there who blatantly SAY they will only date a woman if she can pull 50% of everything nowadays. I say to women WHY do you want to do that if you do not pay rent etc whatsoever just for the sake of HOPE for a marriage and a partner who doesnt know what he wants apart from sex and a cook and a cleaner. So why go ahead and give him those for FREE for years like in my case I was stupid and then to up wanting to leave him now as there is NO proposal in sight. Then the begging starts as suddenly they realize they have to start all over and living costs are now shooting through the roof and thats not easy like someone above said once you over 40 its difficult. But then its too late. Wasted years cant be returned. Wasted time cant be returned as well. Then you do as I am doing now. Tour on my own, tell him straight I will start seeing others too why not as there is not really anything moving forward anymore....let him beg and plan an excellent walk away. As the hurt of this false hope and pretense I had for 7 years was destroyed and this is the very basic reason why so many women are still single. As men say things they do not mean, that I learned well. They want to keep us around in case ONE DAY they suddenly like this one wants you more around ON THEIR TERMS STILL. Why then bother.
Someone once said IF YOU IVESTED IN SOMEONE HEAVILY AND THAT SOMEONE ISNT INVESTED FULLY IN YOU then how can you spend the rest of your life with that SOMEONE knowing that that person will one day stop investing in YOU. THAT IS TRUE.
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