When Your Partner Doesn't Share Your Spiritual Path

Source: Devon and Nico Hase

Devon and Nico Hase are an extraordinary couple whose work combines ancient Buddhist wisdom with psychological practices in an irreverent, no-nonsense style that sets them apart on the mindfulness scene. As life partners and meditation teachers, they're the authors of two books: How Not to Be a Hot Mess: A Buddhist Survival Guide for Modern Life, and another to be published this month, This Messy Gorgeous Love: A Buddhist Guide to Lasting Partnership. Nico, who has a PhD in counseling psychology and has studied extensively in the Zen, Insight, and Tibetan Buddhist traditions. Devon is a graduate of the Insight Meditation Society's Teacher Training Program, has practiced meditation rigorously for the past 25 years, and teaches internationally. I wanted to speak to them about their new book and how mindfulness impacts coupling and love, a topic they are deeply familiar with.

Mark Matousek: A lot of spiritual practitioners are involved with people who don't share their passion for self-realization. How do you recommend navigating "mixed marriages" of this kind?

Devon Hase: You don’t necessarily have to share the same passion for awakening, but there are other things that should be in place. Shared values, for example, and something of a shared worldview. The practices that we talk about in This Messy Gorgeous Love, such as deep listening or the checking-in process, can be approached in very different ways. For example, if both people value the connection the practices offer, they can engage with them using different intentions. Joanna Macy, who was married for a very long time, used to say that she was able to stay with her partner because she viewed him as a wonder and as a mystery. There’s something healthy about cultivating the sense that we really don’t know our partner so well. There’s a healthy distancing that can come from awareness of their uniqueness.

MM: Say more about the benefits of healthy distancing.

Nico Hase: We want enough intimacy with our partner—or with our best friend, or with family members. We want enough intimacy that we feel known, we feel seen, and we’re able to know and see another. That closeness is such an important part of any relationship, including partnership. But one of the other biggest needs that almost every human being has is autonomy. People need to have the room to make the choices in life that are going to sustain and enliven them. They need to have this potential for flourishing. It’s a matter of space, right? We’re always finding the balance between connection and autonomy. This is a never-ending process. There’s no moment where you just land on it, and it stays. It’s continually in flux.

That's part of what can be so deeply uncomfortable about intimate relationship. You’re both dependent on this person and independent from this person. You’re relying on this individual, and you’re also self-reliant. You’re finding activities and interests and values that you share while also doing things separately. That's really important.

MM: Can you talk a little bit about codependency versus healthy attachment within a Buddhist context?

NH: There’s usually one person in a relationship who tends to be what we call dependent, or overly reliant on their partner. The flip side of that is that the other person [i.e., the less dependent partner] is often a perfectly matching "puzzle piece" for the other's dependency. One partner might have more of a savior mentality, like, “I’m going to jump in and take care of everything for you.” They come together beautifully in their neurosis. [laughs]

There are the classical examples of this dynamic, which are fairly easy to spot; almost every relationship has some aspects of codependency. It’s not necessarily a problem, but it’s something to be aware of. Awareness is the key. We want to be aware of the dynamics that are flowing through the relationship and see if we can have some agency. From a Buddhist perspective, what we want to do is bring that warm awareness, kind attention, and mindfulness into the relational dynamics and notice if there's flexibility. If I’m usually the person who’s self-reliant and can take care of everything, could I allow the other person to take care of me more? Or, if I’m the person who tends to want to be cared for, could I care for the other person a little bit more? This is what’s so interesting and creative about being in a long-term partnership. You can switch roles. You can experiment and grow together over a long period of time.

MM: Is it okay to have secrets in a relationship? Or do you think it’s necessary to share everything?

NH: You might be asking the wrong people because do we share everything! We have no secret life. This might be something to look at for Devon and me, because we are constantly filling each other in.

DH: Actually, just at dinner last night, we were reviewing our last six months, and something happened a couple of months ago where I had some painful information that I shared with Nico, and it had an impact on him. He said to me last night, “Maybe you shouldn’t have told me that.” It was good feedback because I hadn't even paused before I shared this information. I didn’t think, “Oh, this is going to have a bad impact. Maybe I should wait.” Because of that feedback, I'm now wondering if there might be some room for more discernment in the way that Nico and I relate to one another. The teachings on intention versus impact are important here.

So much of the work we do is around diversity and creating cultures of healthy inclusion and equity. One of the principles we teach is the difference between intention and impact. We often lead with good intentions, yet if we only value our intentions, we may forget that sometimes they have the opposite impact. This is part of humility, and it can apply not only in partnerships but in so many friendships and connections.

A couple of months ago, a friend had a secret, and they asked Nico, “Can I tell you this if you don’t tell Devon?” He said, “No, I’m probably going to tell her.” That was some good honesty. Our friend knows that’s what we do. That was a way that we could be intentional about it. I think it really depends on the situation.

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NH: What we’re all trying to navigate is, “What’s going to be the most helpful here? What’s going to meet the needs of everyone involved?” I think it’s case by case. Sometimes I don't mind keeping a secret—other times, as in this situation, I sensed that it could be harmful. Discernment is the most important factor. This is true of all human relationships.

MM: What do you most want people to take from your book?

NH: Some readers may be surprised that the first chapter is called "Relationships Are Rough." What we wanted to do, right from the first page of the book, is blow up the assumption that if you figure out the right skills and the right ways of being, somehow your relationships—whether it’s your partnership, parenting, bonds with friends—are going to come to this equilibrium where everything is easy. That is never going to happen. You are never going to come to a place in your partnership where everything is easy because the nature of partnership is that it rubs. That’s the nature of relationships. If you’re living with somebody sharing finances, raising children, working jobs, doing all the things just to keep a life going from one day to the next, you are going to have difficulty. The moment that you truly allow for that difficulty, and accept that this is a feature not a failing, things are going to get much easier. Much more workable. If you truly accept that all relationships are difficult sometimes, so much learning is possible.

MM: Amen.