Why would any man sign up for this deal? Modern day marriage only benefits the woman. Women are free from all their responsibilities that use to come with traditional marriage. While men are still financially responsible. And getting a divorce mostly means the end for a man. He'll be forced to pay for the woman anyway. And is likely to be separated from his kids. So leaving a sexless marriage isn't really a option for most men. Once he say's "I do" it's over. Once he signs the birthcertificate, it's over. The woman has all the power after that. And the government will enforce that power should the man resist. And women know this. That's why they're not willing to even negotiate. They know they have all the power within the marriage. That's why men should never get married. Why would any man do that to himself?
Just stay single!
It’s not a good idea to force yourself to do anything that repels you. At the same time, you may want to push yourself to be experimental, especially if you have a loving and generous partner. Many people have to push themselves to get started, but once into lovemaking, enjoy it and feel more connected. This is especially true if they can take all the pressure off themselves and their partner, and assume a “let’s relax and just see what happens” attitude.
If you wait to have sex until one or both of you genuinely want to have sex, you’ll wait too long. The desire for sex easily goes into hibernation after marriage and especially for women after kids. The more time you let pass before engaging in sex, the harder it will be to start up again.
Having a truly loving partnership does not ensure that both parties want to have sex. Sex has a mind of its own. Good emotional intimacy in couples does not guarantee good sex. But things go downhill if the “No” partner assumes that it’s just fine to live in a sexless marriage, even if he or she is someone for whom sex is an enlivening essential force and means of connection.
To decide you won’t be a physical partner because you don’t feel like it is like your partner deciding that there will be no more conversation in the marriage because he or she is not a talker. On the sex front, there is probably something you can do that wouldn’t be too terribly difficult.
If you don’t want to have sex because your spouse hasn’t healed a serious betrayal, or isn’t a fair and respectful partner, you obviously need to address this. I’m not suggesting you have sex with someone who treats you in a demeaning or disrespectful way.
But if your partner is a good person, and a responsible citizen in the relationship, pushing yourself to have sex once in a while can keep your libido from going into deep freeze especially if children come along. There is often at least one person in a couple who will not feel a “natural urge” to initiate sex but may be able to get into it when they really try. If you’re not aroused, there’s still something to be said for doing something for your partner’s pleasure, and being open to enjoying the physical closeness.
If you truly believe that your relationship can operate as a platonic friendship over months, years, and decades to come, you can ignore this advice. But if you know in your heart that some sort of sex life is necessary for your relationship to thrive over time, grab this advice and go for it.
Just stay single.
Men and marriage
Dear Just Stay Single, a lot of men are doing just that, not getting married. My mother told me, "Why should he buy the cow when he can get the milk for free?" During my marriage, sometimes I didn't feel like doing my husband's laundry, but I did it anyway. Same for sex. I think God or nature gave men such a strong sex drive because being the father of a family is the hardest job on earth, and they wouldn't do it otherwise. My hope for you is that you find a good woman and get married.
Your comments/advice...
Amen, sister. It doesn’t take much to
please a man, and it makes us feel like a man when our lady takes an interest in us, especially sexually. Were so easy to please yet so many women are unwilling to please their man. I’m grateful that I found one who loves to please me and I love to please her back. We have sex every day by the way because we both have a great time pleasing each other and we love each other and we want to make the other person happy. It’s that simple.
What's in it for me?
Why would i buy a overpriced hotdog, while attending a 5 star all you can eat buffet?
Why would i ever want to get married in this day and age?
There's no benefit in it for me. Only high costs and huge risks.
It's not worth the investment. Women are deprecating assets. Their value to me only decreases as they get older. While my main value to women will still grow as i'm building up my capital. You should never buy a deprecating asset. It's better to just lease them short-term. And calling women assets is already generous overstatement. Most women are nothing but a liability to men. And the marriage contract itself is literally the worst contract a man can ever sign. I don't care if i would have the most perfect woman in history. I would still not get married. It wouldn't change the fact that it's a bad contract. And it doesn't benefit me to sign it. I have zero interest in marriage or cohabitation. Never going to happen.
Well aren’t you just a prize!
Well aren’t you just a prize!
Prize?
That’s what you women think you are! You make us do all the romantic preamble, lure us into marriage, and then make sex some kind of reward.
Your attitude to sex - like it’s some kind of treat or compensation for favours given, gifts purchased, chores completed is abhorrent.
Why would any guy run into an effective blackmail labelled marriage?!
If you don’t want to enthusiastically give yourselves to a man who does his best to take care of you then you do not understand the contract you have with society.
Marriage is the gift a man will give in return for his monogamy. If you don’t honour that contract then you shouldn’t marry - it amounts to fraud.
i trust no man anymore
Don't trust anyone it's sad when your husband is having love affairs with your best friend, i noticed my husband is getting too much closer with my friend angelika , my husband chats now in private,his calls are in secret and he changed his phone password, I was wondering what must have gone wrong,i had to consult my sister who introduced me to (h a c k m e d i a 349 @ g m a i l c o m) who help me to hack my husband phone, without touching his phone, in less than 2 hours after his phone was finally hacked, his phone activities started coming into my phone instantly.his prove of genius cleared my doubt, he work with discretion and deliver he also does all sort of hack access to all social media account remotely . you can also contact him via call or text +1 {213} 806 5422.. if you have similar issue' his services are affordable just tell him i refer you to him he is man with heart of gold..
Get a grip 'Stay Single'
Oh get a grip 'just stay single' and stop moaning to strangers on the internet. Please stay single for the sake of women everywhere who don't want to put up with your moaning, self-pitying ass. And if you don't want to provide for your own child then just keep it in your pants. And if you were better in bed maybe a woman would actually want to shag you ;).
Sexless marriage
I am going on 18years without any sex in my marriage, simply because she says no all the time and I respect that. Recently I am considering ending my life. I have no options. Divorce would break me even more. Any sarcastic ideas for me.
Tell her
That you respect her position and that you are going to get a girlfriend, and that you expect her to respect your decision!
Alpha f.... Beta bucks.
Your solution sounds reasonable. There are however some practical problems to consider.
1: She has all the power within the relationship. So she doesn't have to negotiate with him. She's entitled to his money by law. Doesn't matter if she stays with him or not. She might divorce him if he makes any requests she doesn't like. And most wife's don't like their husbands having a girlfriend.
2: If he gets divorced he'll loses all his resources. He can't attract a new woman without money. So he probably wouldn't have much sex should that happen. Women generally don't like broke men. Unless he's a alpha male. But he wouldn't be in this position if he was.
3: Getting a girlfriend might be a problem. His resources are already locked down by his wife. He has little to offer to another woman. Unless he's a alpha male or spends money on her.
That's at the core of the problem. Women like to marry beta providers. Because they offer financial security. But women are not sexually aroused by beta's.
Not Sarcastic
Steve, I can’t give advice. I don’t know anything. I love my husband and yet I don’t feel like sex. Not with him or anyone else. But the thought of your words being thought or written by him kills me. The thought of me causing that. I am so sorry for you. I am so sorry for my husband. I don’t ever want him to feel like that. That’s all. I hope you find peace somehow. Please don’t kill yourself to do it.
Desire
The article says:
"having sex once in a while can keep your libido from going into deep freeze"
That ship may have already sailed for you. It's worth noting that for some people desire doesn't kick in until after arousal. It becomes a self-fulling prophecy. You state that you have no desire and therefore you never get get aroused.
Recently I am considering
Recently I am considering ending my life. I have no options. Divorce would break me even more. Any sarcastic ideas for me.....
Steve, write a book.
Steve
Don't tell her anything. Keep up acting normal. Start pulling aside as much resources as possible without her finding out. Once you have secured as much money as you possibly can. Make a run for it. Just vanish with the money. You can already retire for about 200k in South East Asia. You can have all the young hot women you can possibly desire there. You can still have a great life there. The only downside would be that you have to leave everything behind. And you can never go back to the Western world. This might include leaving your children. But you'll lose everything should you get divorced anyway. The family courts won't give you a fair deal. And she's likely going to accuse you of domestic violence. So it's not likely you'll see your kids that much after divorce anyway. You'll end up being a financial slave to her if you go to court. Best to start a new life abroad. Who knows, maybe the kids will reconnect with you in a couple years. You can explain why you left later.
Good luck.
Self-pity?
There's no reason for self-pity here. I'm not stuck in a unhappy or sexless marriage. I petty the men who are. And i hope that other men learn from their suffering. So that they'll be free from these hardships. The marriage contract has changed because of feminism. It has become a totally different deal. And it doesn't benefit men anymore. Therefore it's only logical for men to reconsider. Women have been freed from their traditional gender role responsibilities. It's about time men start to rethink their own position. And really do some serious research into this contract before signing it. You can't expect men to pretend it's still 1950. While women live in the current year. You can't expect men to just except this bad deal without getting anything in return. Something has to give. Either the deal is made more favourable for men. Or more and more men will reject it all together. And your suggestions about me not being able to get laid are totally irrelevant and can't be considered an argument.
He was complaining about
He was complaining about being separated from children, not providing for them. Is that self pity?
As to his comment about financial support, courts will order alimony even when there are no kids in the picture.
CONSENT IS KEY
this article is horrific. No one should have sex when they don't want to. There's a clear difference between not wanting to and not yet in the mood for it. Consent has to be affirmative, freely given and can be revoked at any time.
This article is essentially promoting marital rape.
Try reading the article
If a person voluntarily decides to have sex even though they're not totally in the mood for it, that is not rape. Nowhere in the article did the author say it's okay for the person who does want sex to force, pressure, or coerce the other partner - and he specifically says this advice doesn't apply when one partner is treating the other with disrespect or betrayal.
A long-term relationship is largely about both partners doing things for each other even when they don't have an immediate intense desire to do so.
It's not coercion. It's called 'giving' and as long as it's balanced and mutual, it is a very healthy thing in a relationship.
*she* specifically says
*she* specifically says
Putting others first ≠ Rape
@ Advocate for consent
Your sexual ethics are quite impoverished if their only dimension is consent. Yes, consent is important.
However, I suspect that the over-emphasis on consent comes from a self-focused desire to remain in control 100% of the time.
Relationships - especially marriage relationships - aren't supposed to be all about you. In order to work long-term, they demand that you learn to subordinate your wants, needs, and desires in favor of the other person. This self-sacrifice can continue for indefinite periods of time and it's the basis for the traditional marriage vows... "for richer or poorer" + "in sickness and in health."
Marriage will not tolerate fair-weather fans. So, lovingly meeting your partners sexual, emotional, and other needs in the "richer" and "in health" conditions determines the strength of your resolve to weather the "poorer" and "in sickness" circumstances. If you don't learn unselfish love then you have effectively failed.
If this only went one way, then I'd agree with you, but it doesn't it applies to men as much (or more than) it does to women. No man is entitled to sex and he must love his wife in an understanding way. It's about setting aside one's privileges and preferences in favor of your partners needs. If both partners are all in on that you don't have to worry about yourself, that's your partner's job. It's beautiful when it works but it is also alien to our "me first" culture.
Disclaimer
The article included this disclaimer:
"If you truly believe that your relationship can operate as a platonic friendship over months, years, and decades to come, you can ignore this advice."
The article is well-intentioned. Michele Weiner-Davis says the same thing in her Ted-Talks. She says: "Just Do It". It's good advice for people that believe they consented to be in a sexual relationship with a person.
agreed!!
I had the exact same thoughts while reading it; I figured it had to be an old article and couldn't believe when I saw it was just published. A very insensitive treatment of this topic.
This article is suggesting
This article is suggesting that the disinterested party try to be open minded. So, unless they're somehow choosing to be raped, rape is not what's being suggested here.
Libidos reversed
Dear Ben, With that view of marriage you absolutely should stay single. However, it is common knowledge that the majority of wives and mothers now work outside of the home contributing to the family income. So men are not financially responsible for everything. And I can tell you from personal experience that what you describe in divorce is not always the case. Our children are grown after 32 years together so visitation is not an issue. But my sex drive, to put it bluntly, was always much higher than his. Over the years we compromised and kept a happy medium. But seven years ago he narrowed it down to twice a year. That bothered me immensely but I wasn't considering divorce. By 2015 he cut me off completely. I didn't believe he was cheating and thought perhaps there was a medical reason for his ED. So I insisted that he got a complete physical after which he proudly announced that he was in perfect health. That's when I became angry and I did not feel powerful at all. I tried many times to talk with him about how lonely I was and that I was not willing to live the rest of our lives in abstinence. He wouldn't budge, refused to discuss it with me. We went to counseling but how could that help when sex was off limits and out of the question? Finally in 2017 I left him and got divorced last year. Btw, I now live in a low income studio apartment in another state. I get no alimony, no kind of support from him whatsoever. Before the divorce was even finalized, he bought a 3 bedroom, 2 bath house with an inground pool. I have been disabled since 1994 and now live in the "nice side of the ghetto," but he "couldn't afford to pay me alimony." Please by all means stay single and do not bitch at me about women having all the power.
Beth
Modern day marriage fails the risk/benefit analysis according to most young men. There are always exceptions to the rule. But men are generally disadvantaged in divorce. And marriage isn't giving most men what they want anymore. Feminism has changed the deal. And most men don't like it. That's why marriage and romance are dead.
But let's blame porn and video games like most people do. If that makes you feel any better about it.
"If you wait to have sex
"If you wait to have sex until one or both of you genuinely want to have sex, you’ll wait too long. " Imagining typing that with your own fingers and thinkin that it's actually helpful advice. The fact that the author seems to definie herself as a feminist but doesn't respect the basic of consent makes it worst. This article shouldn't have been published in 2019 and psychology today shoud be ashamed.
Yikes
I feel intensely sorry for your significant other. You are too focused on yourself to be much help to anyone else. Please stay single until you can see why acting in someone else's interests (as opposed to your own) is a prerequisite to a relationship with staying power.
If you always focus on your own rights and on yourself you have very little recognition of others much less something to share. This is toxic in a relationship.
Needs rephrasing
That particular sentence is poorly phrased and could be open to the interpretation you're giving it, but only if you ignore everything else in the article.
"If you wait until both of you have an overwhelming intense libidinal desire, you will wait too long" might capture the idea more accurately. Even in a long-term relationship, people are not necessarily always in phase with each other. Making the decision to voluntarily participate, even when one does not have an overwhelming desire at the beginning, is a voluntary consented decision, and if both partners are willing to do that sometimes they will both come out ahead.
If for example on Tuesday one partner is 100% interested and the other is only 15% interested, and on Saturday those percentages are reversed, there are two choices: either they can both give a little and be willing even when they're not fully interested and have sex twice that week, or they can demand an unrealistic Hollywood standard of totally synchronous interest, and not have sex at all that week.
agreed
I am in complete agreement, that sentence and the rest of the article is just awful.
Outrage
It would be useful if someone would spell-out what the outrage is about. No one said that a spouse had to have sex tonight, or tomorrow night for that matter. The issue is one partner unilaterally changing the terms of the relationship.
The author of the article went to great pains to describe the YES partner as: "a good person, and a responsible citizen in the relationship".
It's a fair topic to discuss. Marriage is a contract. A person that wants to renege on part of the deal should as least explain why it's acceptable to not live-up to their end of the bargain.
The above only applies to marriages that were entered into as monogamous sexual relationships.
Consent does not necessarily
Consent does not necessarily mean want in the strictest sense - there are degrees of want. If both parties at least don't mind, then there is consent.
I'd also like to add that there are many things that people regularly do despite not necessarily "wanting to," and yet they can still feel better having done it. Working out comes to mind. And, just as with sex, it would be cruel to force someone to do it, but I don't feel bad lending encouragement.
Common Ground
The trick is to establish a dialogue outside of the bedroom. Both parties need to understand and accept the needs of the other. "Not Tonight" needs to be accepted, but it doesn't need to be the end of the discussion. If you both agree that sex is part of the relationship than it's simply agreeing on when it's going to happen. Spontaneity might be fun, but it's not a good plan for the long run. No surprises is actually better.
Why not?
Why would you not want to connect with your partner in life? That is what should be considered. It means there is some psychological or physical problem preventing the intimacy. Intimacy and sex is positive, in the way the author of this article expressed the intentions. If you don't want to be intimate with your partner, both people should know why. Consider as well Lisa Firestone and her father, Robert Firestone and their theory and research of the Fantasy Bond.
Ego: Fragile or Resilient?
If you have what's called a "fragile ego", approximately synonymous with "low self esteem", then you will not be able to take her refusals well. You will follow one of a few beaten paths: sulk, cheat, leave. (Hopefully skip the assault and jail time.)
On the other hand, if your ego is made of tungsten steel, which usually subs for "high self esteem", then you will behave nicely with her, fulfill all other aspects of the (marriage) contract, and keep on asking nicely and never hold a grudge at being turned down.
After all, if neither party is under external pressure, a 1 in 12 success rate is perfectly normal. After all, "every woman is different" and there's no political correctness in claiming "all men are dogs"; they are entitled to be as different as women, surely.
Beyond the basics, perhaps the most important part of sex-ed is to accept that 1 in 12 part. That is to say, if you a re not OK with that success rate, hetero sex is not for you. This one ratio should be enough to shatter "intelligent design". Imagine the ruckus that would result if the IQ or blood pressure of one gender were 1/12th of the other...
Persistence
The idea of being persistent may work, but it can backfire, too. There needs to be discussion about the validity of each persons wants and needs. The NO person may find it annoying to be continually asked. Scheduled sex takes the pressure off both parties. The couple can agree that Saturday will be the day and that there is no reason to try to initiate sex before then.
Even when you ask nicely the person that declines is made to feel bad. It's a constant reminder that you're disappointed with them. When one party tries to initiate sex and the other declines, the next step is to agree on a future date that both can look forward to. It becomes a positive thing. Instead of asking for sex you can say that you're looking forward to Saturday. That acts as a reminder and lets the other party know that they are desirable.
The 1:12 ratio becomes 1:2 and there is less tension.
Persistence vs pestering and FCC rules
By persistence I did not mean pestering, that should have been obvious. Since when did pestering a woman get a man sex? I meant, the "high self esteem" man should not take 1 in 12 success rate as a negative statement about his attractiveness or worthiness as a mate, and must not give up hope and assume he will never again get any for the rest of his life. Even after months of no-action, he must remain cheerful and have the faith that some day, the wife will feel like throwing him a crumb.
Ideal husbands are like FCC-approved electronic gadgets:
(1) This device may not cause harmful interference, and
(2) this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation.
Helpful paraphrase:
(1) The man should never ask for sex, at least, never beyond the most oblique of hints.
(2) The man should never refuse sex, should the woman ask for some.
Not for the faint of heart!
Weekend only
Before we married, my wife and I had sex at least 3 times a week. Within a month after we married, she very frankly told me she didn't like having sex that often and once a week was enough, weekend only. Years later, marriage counseling didn't change anything. At that point, we scheduled sex once on a weekend and I could ASK once during the week, she didn't like me asking anymore often. If the monthly visitor is around on a weekend, we skip that weekend. Wife controls nearly all sex we have.
Deception
You said:
"Before we married, my wife and I had sex at least 3 times a week. Within a month after we married, she very frankly told me she didn't like having sex that often"
It sounds like she deceived you. She pretended to enjoy sex with you before marriage and obviously did not. It could mean that she just does not like sex. It could also mean that you're not very good at it.
It should be obvious to both people involved if you're sexually compatible. Unfortunately, either she was a great actor or you didn't pick up the clues.
Deceived for sure
You are right, I thought she wanted it more than once a week, but she didn't. Our sex life has not been very good or at least as good as I dreamed it would be.
Intimacy = Nearness
Sometimes I don't feel like working out but once I'm at the gym it feels good and makes wonders for my well-being. Had a friend whose marriage was down the drain, she suffered horribly bout wouldn't divorce. Turned out they hadn't had sex for over a decade. Told her she should try it to get their love back. Her reply was "absolutely not". OK then, have it that way. For me sex is not just reproduction, it's closeness to my partner. Someone once said sex should be scheduled weekly like any other activities, I totally agree. Why suffer bad marriages when the remedy could be that simple. Life is short people, have some fun.
Orgasm Gap
She comes first is a good rule to follow. It's okay if she wants to take a rain check because she has too many things on her mind or just isn't up for it. But, she'll be more into sex if she knows her needs come first.
This topic is tiresome
The underlying this is this:
Even the most loved child leaves mom and dad at some point. Every relationship has an agenda. Find what yours is and fulfill.
If it was about building wealth. Admit.
Having children who all become Ph.Ds and successful. Admit.
Having a loving relationship where you both give 100% but not all at once and not all the time. Admit.
The problem is if marriage is not making you feel free, you are in prison that you created and no amount of wealth will rescue. It is better to be poor and homeless than be in a marriage where you not seen or heard.
There is a point (or a statement) made by a man named Winnoccot. It states to a point- love is sometimes being alone along with someone. But if that someone completely ignores you like Echo on her Narcissus, then you get the point.
It is never about the sex but about you ask for being loved certain way that you came to accept and except and you are ignored, rejected and completely made into a stone by asking...that will wear thin eventually and no matter how strong or super human you are, eventually even a loved child left the nest.
New Age Stuff
I tried to relate to this comment and finally gave-up. None of it applies to me or anyone I know. My marriage does not make me feel free. It's the opposite of feeling free. I feel connected and happy.
When you say: "It is never about the sex" I think the word never does not apply. I'd say it's not always about the sex, but sometimes sex is pretty high up on the list.
You r right about the never commen t
But freedom on marriage means happiness content and the ability to be me and do whatever I want. We love each other but we do not own each other. I know hard to get it but real.
Is this forever yes if forever means today... Have no idea tomorrow.
PS. No kids and not open and sex whenever we feel as long as we r healthy and talk difficulties es when needed
Corvette
I'd like to own a Corvette. I have enough money to buy one without getting a loan. I don't do it because it wouldn't fair to buy something like that without getting my spouse's agreement.
I can't "do whatever I want". Neither can my spouse. We're equal partners and we reach agreement before doing things like that.
Freedom is not
About material world but emotional freedom.
Of course we talk about buying corvette.... Lol that red herring argument.
What we do not do put obligation, ownership and guilt on each other.
We fight too but we know when we are two three yrs fighting vs two adult and a childhood issue kid or vice versa.
Honestly I am more free when single. When single I wanted love and relationship and that I have I focus being a better person and see my love as an ocean full of oxygen to ignite my creative side.
If all yoy have is agreement over corvette, you may be limiting your potential as adult human.
People die it is OK to love them now and today and have a positive internalization of them but u cannt possess them or oppsess over them. My husband love will last forever for me.
Common Goals
I think we're on the same page. The Corvette example was intended to point out the restraints of the freedom. There are plenty of reasons why I would not buy a Corvette. For one, it would be an emotional decision to buy a sports car. Not a practical decision.
Common goals are needed in a marriage. I heard people say that we're stuck with the leftovers. It's an unpleasant way to say that the couple does what is agreed on. I might want to go to New Orleans for a vacation and my spouse might want to go to Bermuda. But, we end up going to Vegas because it's both of our 2nd choice.
Neither of us want to go on a vacation alone, so we select something that both of us will enjoy.
That is it
Even If you were single...you have to decide where to go... You can't go everywhere that you want. Time money and energy are all barriers. But with a person I chose we see each other as natural not resentment or blockage. I even enjoy if my spouse want to go sport related trip with his friends because we can afford and I can go with my girls. We do not do it often because of funds and vacation time but we don't hold each other back. Life is short so we are mature and young we r in 30s and 40s. Sex is the same. We are concious of resentment and rejection.. So we talk about it when not in the mood.
I am not saying easy. I am saying u can be happy alone or in couple. It is on you but we love to project. It is easier but crazier and lighter.
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