If animals don't practise incest in nature, how do unscrupulous dog breeders get away with breeding brother and sister, parent and pup etc in order to keep the breeding line (and the gravy train)going? Will a dog automatically mate with a bitch in heat no matter the genetic connection?

Mr. James Russell of Cashiers, North Carolina, recently justified meat-eating in the pages of Asheville Citizen-Times by arguing that humans are biologically classified as carnivores. His reasoning was simple. The consumption of animal flesh is morally right because it is natural.
Unfortunately, Mr. Russell got his facts wrong. Zoologists place humans in the order Primate (family Hominidea), not in the order Carnivora. Furthermore, like rats, humans are omnivores, not carnivores. But more troubling is Mr. Russell’s belief that humans should look to nature for moral guidance. He justifies meat-eating in humans on the grounds that other animals eat one another. I suspect, however, that he does not approve of gang rape, adultery, cannibalism, and the consumption of feces, all of which are practiced in nature by our four-legged brethren. While moral codes exist in other species (see here), humans have the capacity—and, indeed, the responsibility—to operate on a higher ethical plane.
The (Nearly) Universal Taboo
On matters of morality, I generally agree with Katherine Hepburn who quipped to Humphrey Bogart in The African Queen, "Nature is what we are put in this world to rise above." There is, however, an exception to my contention that humans should not turn to nature for moral guidance. It is the rule that says: “Don’t have sex with first-degree relatives.” First-degree relatives are the individuals you share 50 percent of your genes with—your parents, children, and siblings. Indeed, non-human animals have evolved a host of strategies to prevent incest (here). Even plants possess anti-incest mechanisms (here).
As University of Miami psychologists Debra Lieberman and Adam Smith pointed out in a recent article in the journal Current Directions in Psychological Science, humans have social and psychological mechanisms to deter incest. With very few exceptions, marriages between brothers and sisters and between parents and their children are verboten in every human culture. The primary psychological anti-incest mechanism is the yuck response. Even the idea of sex with mom or dad or bro or sis is upsetting to most people. The psychologist Jonathan Haidt has found that nearly everyone is repelled by the prospect of brother-sister sex, even in hypothetical situations in which there is no chance of pregnancy (here).
The Biological Cost of Incest
This raises an interesting question: Just what’s so bad about incest? Sure, having sex with your dad or your sister seems gross. But why? Some anthropologists have argued that incest taboos are learned social conventions. This explanation, however, doesn’t make sense to me as it does not explain the widespread existence of anti-incest mechanisms in creatures ranging from cockroaches to chimpanzees (here). Second, the incest taboo is about as close to a universal law as human moral rules get.
Why should mechanisms for avoiding incest be so widespread both in nature and across human societies? The answer is simple. The problem with having sex close with relatives is that there is an astonishingly high chance that your offspring will be born with a serious birth defect. Take the results:

Percent of children with severe birth defects.
Source: A study of Czechoslovakian children whose fathers were first-degree relatives. Fewer than half of the children who were the product of incestuous unions were completely healthy. Forty-two percent of them were born with severe birth defects or suffered early death and another 11 percent mildly impaired mentally. This study is particularly instructive as it included a unique control group—the offspring of the same mothers but whose fathers were not the mothers’ relatives. When the same women were impregnated by a non-relative, only 7 percent of their children were born with a birth defect (Figure 1).
A group of genetic counselors reviewed the research on the biological consequences of sex between relatives (consanguineous relationships) (here). They found a surprisingly small increase (about 4 percent) in birth defects among the children of married cousins. Incest between first-degree relatives, however, was a different story. The researchers examined four studies (including the Czech research) on the effects of first-degree incest on the health of the offspring. Forty percent of the children were born with either autosomal recessive disorders, congenital physical malformations, or severe intellectual deficits. And another 14 percent of them had mild mental disabilities. In short, the odds that a newborn child who is the product of brother-sister or father-daughter incest will suffer an early death, a severe birth defect or some mental deficiently approaches 50 percent.
Foolish Consistencies and Little Minds
The profound negative effects of incest on unborn children raise the issues of moral consistency and of abortion politics. I understand the pro-life argument. If you believe that human life begins at the moment sperm meets egg, it is perfectly logical to oppose abortion. But at what point do reasonable people temper logical consistency with compassion and common sense?
During the 2012 Republican Party convention in Tampa, the Platform Committee struggled with an aspect of the argument against legal abortion. Just about everyone on the committee agreed that abortion should be banned. But committee members were split over whether official party doctrine should include exceptions to the abortion ban if a fetus was the result of rape or incest. In the end, ideological purity prevailed. The official Republican platform states, “We assert the inherent dignity and sanctity of all human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed.” No exceptions, period. Even in cases of first-degree relative incest.
I grudgingly admit that the lack of any exception in the official Republican position on abortion is logically consistent with the party's statement on the “sanctity of all human life.” But shouldn't logic sometimes be tempered with compassion? Emerson famously wrote, “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.”
Forcing a woman burdened with the psychological scars of incest to bear a child who has a roughly 50:50 chance of having mental disabilities or a severe birth defect is perhaps the ultimate example of a foolish consistency that appeals to little statesmen.
animal
If a dog breeder is using relatives & off spring, to produce a litter - they shouldn't be. I would question the legitimacy of them truly being considered "breeders" & more along the lines of "back yard breeders. "
Professional breeders do not produce incestuous litters. Yes, it can be done, and there can be normal puppies, but most likely, they will have physical problems. Even if it's not obvious on the outside, they will be prone to hip & teeth issues.
If a male offspring's mother goes into heat, they will most likely try to mate/will mate, because of biological urges. This doesn't mean it's natural. Domestic animals are stuck with living circumstances we people provide. In the wild, animals drive off their young. Nature created a way to try and prevent incest.
Men can be incest victims, too
While most sex abuse and/or rape crimes are perpetrated against women (and your article took a decisive political turn re: women's health issues/abortion), remember that men can also be victims of incest.
A "friend" of mine told me he was sexually molested by his sister; it began when he was nine and she was nineteen, and it went on for three years.
As a result, and with other concomitant factors, he developed Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) for which he's never been treated and he is now 61 y.o. The effect of that trauma has devastated his life, and caused pain in every relationship he's attempted to have. He and she have never dealt with this violation of him (they are both still living) and it hurts me to see him be in such emotional turmoil, but he won't get help.
Don't forget the men; they, too, suffer from conditions/violations that are mostly associated to women--including being victims of rape, incest and abuse.
See related posts at:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/black-womens-health-and-happiness
men as sexual assault victims
Melody...
Thanks for pointing this out. You are absolutely right. A psychologist named Peter Anderson has studied this phenomenon extensively. See his book on sexually aggressive women.
Here is the link
http://www.amazon.com/Sexually-Aggressive-Women-Perspectives-Controversies/dp/1572301651/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1351364411&sr=1-1&keywords=peter+anderson+sexually+aggressive+women
Hal
Did you really have to plug
Did you really have to plug your blog?
Male vistims
Yes,, there are male victims, but two things conspire to keep them silent. If a young male has sex with a willing partner, macho attitudes tell him, "woah, dude you scored! high five!". This sex bias goes against a man or boy saying his sexual experience was NEGATIVE and UNWANTED. if he states he did not want it, they question him being GAY.
Secondly, males who report are seen as weak, by themselves and by others. A males ego demands he be strong, and society expects it also. SO, males DO NOT REPORT.
My dear hubby was RAPED in the military, in boot camp. It was a 'blanket party'. A blanket is thrown over the victim, and all participants take turns sodomizing him. It is humiliating and can lead to a total mental breakdown, as what happened to MDH.
He DID NOT report it, and it affects his attitudes toward rape today. He becomes all stoney faced and silent when the subject of rape comes up. Sometimes he gets angry AT THE PERSON TALKING!!! I love him, support him and have tried to help him. I will soon fill out an incident report and turn it in to the military. He deserves that much.
male rape victims
Thanks for pointing out the problem of male rape, Cathy. This is a much bigger problem than most people realize -- and it is equally traumatic for male and female victims. However, there has been much less research on sexual assault when the victim is a man.
The Problem with Incest
Not only can there be dire genetic consequences to too-close interbreeding, what's not clearly stated in this article is the immense psycho-social, psycho-physical damage of incest. Children who are incested by a parent (or perhaps sibling) may often have profound wounding that can take a lifetime to heal. So if anyone says intrafamilial sexual activity is OK, I feel they're full of cr@p.
psychological effects of incest
Dear anonymous....
Of course you are right - there can be dire psychological costs of incest. The only reason that I did not discuss the psychological problems assoicated with incest is that I try to keep my posts to less than 1,000 words. It would take a lot more than 1,000 words to do justice to the the topic. In addition, I try to only write about topics that I know about. A clinical psychologist would be better suited than I am to take this on.
Incest of brother by sister...
You need to know that YES, it screws you up. I've dealt with years and years of mental and emotional frustration. I'm disabled due to the fact I can't have intercourse because it's always stuck in my mind about what happened. There's a term for the actual physical pain I experience from her rapping me.
You talk to other "men," and they think you're gay if you don't go along with them. Adam Sandler's "film That's My Boy," makes it seem funny. It's not. Most times when I watch I can only hide how I feel because of the emotional torment I feel from going back to that place again.
I wish I could have a healthy sexual relationship.
I
I would have zero problem with ANY female over 18 raping me. With no exceptions. I'd probably ask them to do it again or send over their friends
Idiot. Is there not enough
Idiot. Is there not enough trouble in the world for you? Hand over your brain card immediately.
What About Siblings
Your scenario is one where the sexual relationship is not just incest, but the power play of a parents using their own child as a sexual object. That's objectionable not just due to the incest factor in that abusive relationship. What about adult, consenting, siblings who won't, or cannot, procreate having a sexual relationship? How is that intrafamilial activity wrong beyond simply cultural norms?
Psychological effects of
Psychological effects of abortion, especially long-term, should be considered as well.
Tell me what that has to do
Tell me what that has to do with incest?
Abortion and Incest
If you read the article, then you would know that the entire last section, titled "Foolish Consistencies and Little Minds," is about abortion and incest.
Incest and abortion
Anonymous wrote:Psychological effects of abortion, especially long-term, should be considered as well.
I find the logic of the writer fallible. He is saying we should murder a baby because he might die at a young age? As for mental retardation, does a disability like that really incite murder. Thinking like that is reminiscent of killing the weak among us so that the strong may prosper even more. The writer is correct in the first two paragraphs where he explains we as humans cannot act like animals. We should be morally above killing the weakest members of our herd.
It is my belief that abortion advocates should be taken into a case study to determine sociopathic tendencies.
Psychological effects of abortion
What studies have shown is that the risk of negative psychological effects comes from the unplanned pregnancy itself, REGARDLESS of how it is resolved; be that keeping the child, abortion or adoption.
Crazy Talk
I would have sex with my brother if he were open to the idea. This is more taboo social brainwashing trying to make us what we were not designed to be. Bury your feelings for all I care. Save a psychologists' job!
Don't feel bad Sue. My sister
Don't feel bad Sue. My sister and I have had openly honest conversations about sexual activity together. We have never actually done anything but we have both suggested it at one time or another during our lives. Each time the subject comes up there is always something that one of us says or does which stops us. Eh, maybe it isn't to be. Either way she is really one of my best friends and I'll always love her like my sister.
Obvious troll is
Obvious troll is obvious.
Everything you said is absolute stupidity, and has been refuted many times.
Try again..
I find your dismissal without
I find your dismissal without a non-ad hominem explanation to be infinitely more troublesome than Crazy Talk's comment. Stifling conversation is no way to participate in discussions. [That's what political blogs are for, LOL!] Everything s/he said is not "absolute stupidity" nor has it "been refuted many times." Since Crazy Talk did not follow your suggestion to "Try again," please allow me to do so ...
Even if you are correct and Crazy Talk is a troll, what s/he says is legitimately a position held by some people, including some scientists. For example, famed theoretical physicist/cosmologist Dr. Lawrence M. Krauss argues that, "If you ask me apriori the question ‘if a bother and sister love each other and use contraception, is there something absolutely morally wrong about that?’ … I’d have to think about it because I don’t think there’s any absolute condemnation of that fact. If they love each other and care for each other and they go off and it doesn’t affect anything else … --." If the sex is consensual between two adult siblings, and they aren't having any offspring, then why is it wrong? The Westermarck Effect? [http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Westermarck_effect]
Then you have the deCODE genetics company in Iceland, which found that "in spite of the fact that bringing together two alleles of a recessive trait may be bad, there may be some biological wisdom in the union of relatively closely related people." [See http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ReproductiveHealth/story?id=4258128&page=1] Due to its low population and geographic isolation, inbreeding in Iceland was unavoidable for hundreds of years, and these "kissing cousins" produced more, healthier offspring than more distantly related mating.[See http://www.sciencemag.org/content/319/5864/813]
Aside from parent-child and sibling incest, even for procreation, the incest taboo is new. European royalty were, at some point in the not-so-distant past, all fairly closely related. This was due to the "royal blood" myth they believed. It was common for first cousins to marry and have offspring all the way up to the current monarch, Queen Elizabeth II. Her husband, the Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Philip, are not only third cousins since both are direct descendants of Queen Victoria, (who was, herself, married to her first cousin, Prince Albert), they are also second cousins once removed because they're both descendants of King Christian IX of Denmark. First cousins Queen Victoria and Prince Albert had nine children, and all of their children married relatives of varying degrees across Europe. This well known fact gained Queen Victoria the nickname "Grandmother of Europe." [See http://womenshistory.about.com/od/rulers20thcentury/f/How-Are-Queen-Elizabeth-Ii-And-Prince-Philip-Related.htm]
Royals intermarrying isn't, however, unique to Europeans. The most famous royal sibling marriage is Cleopatra VII and Ptolemy XIII, who co-ruled Egypt after their father's death. It's also not unique to the aristocracy or isolated populations. U. S. presidents Thomas Jefferson and John Adams were both married to their third cousin, respectively. Vice-President John Calhoun was married to his first cousin once removed. Charles Darwin, who should've known better [I kid, LOL!], was married to his first cousin, Emma Wedgwood, and their mutual grandparents, Sarah and Josiah Wedgwood, were themselves third cousins. Albert Einstein's wife was both his first cousin on his father's side and his second cousin on his mother's. Mafioso Don Carlo Gambino was married to his first cousin. Former NYC Mayor Rudy Giuliani has known his first wife, educator Regina Peruggi, since they were children because she is his second cousin once removed. Musician Jerry Lee Lewis's third marriage was to his first cousin once removed, who was also 13 years old when they married. He was 22. They had two children, and divorced after thirteen years of marriage. Renowned psychologist Abraham Maslow was married to his first cousin. There are so many more examples. Here's a list, though it is by no means comprehensive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coupled_cousins
See what you can learn if you don't simply dismiss something before understanding why you are dismissing it?
Royal Intermarriage
There has never been much of a taboo on "kissing cousins," and there is little biological reason for one - as the article explains, even unions between first cousins did not produce a particularly significant increase in genetic deformities. I still think that they (unions) should be avoided because in a modern society with advanced genetic science, genealogical record-keeping, alternatives such as surrogate mothers and sperm banks, birth control, and long-distnace communication, very few instances exist that make interbreeding at the cost of a somewhat increased risk of genetic illness unavoidable. Iceland, for instance, now requires genetic compatibility checks on prospective parents - I heard it described as a "government-mandated online dating system." But that might just be an urban legend. Anyway, we can probably agree that those aren't the issue here.
First-degree intermarriage among royal families, I think, is an interesting exception rather than a rule. It dates back to Ancient Egypt, where it was seen as a privilege reserved exclusively for the pharaohs. In addition to keeping the "divine" bloodline pure, the pharaohs wielded the behavior as a symbol of their status as gods on earth - to show that they were completely above even otherwise universal human taboos. (I'm not sure of the precise number, but not an insignificant number of the thirty-odd dynasties ended when a pharaoh was either unable to reproduce or otherwise deformed by interbreeding - Tut, with his club foot and two stillborn daughters by his stepsister, being the most well-known example.) The Egyptian royals were absolutely obsessed with their desire to distance themselves from their people for the aforementioned reasons, though, so much so that they were driven to distraction and sometimes ruin by it, so they are the most extreme examples. The Polynesians (and another relatively recent Asian monarchy that I can't recall - then-Siamese, maybe? Most of this was from the Nat Geo mag issue featuring Tut in 2009 or 2010) were the same way - when Hawaii was colonized, missionaries found that sibling intermarriage was practiced, but only as a status-showing royal privilege. I could also see inferences to be drawn from this that humans will find no harm in incest if freed to practice it with social impunity, but I think that instead this connection of incest to supernaturally bestowed authority further cements it as a natural taboo.
Now, to address the more recent European royals. Again, the waters are muddy. There are, as you mentioned, political motives involved. They had practical reasons to engage in incest (the continued concentration of power in the hands of a few families) and probably believed themselves above biology, or else chose to discount it. And again, there are various cases of deformities and deficiencies caused by inbreeding .(This isn't a recent example, but Charles V and his magnificent chin and not-so-magnificent intellect, among others.) I suppose they saw it as simply one of the prices of maintaining the political order, as I doubt they were unaware of it.
I guess I'll have to now, but I haven't done much reading on the modern moral implications of incest in which the possibility of offspring is almost completely discounted and other options for bearing children are available. That's an almost totally different issue. The most I can manage against that are some probably rubbish arguments about how keeping romantic and social relationships inside family units reduces social contact/social diversity and can lead to non-genetic personality issues. Back when I was still a Catholic I would have argued that there are issues with romantic relationships that have no possibility of naturally bearing children, but that's obviously rubbish. I can say that romantic relationships between siblings (discounting the possibility of existing power dynamics, which do still exist for whatever sundry reasons) are complex and almost completely uncharted territory because their possibility is a product of recent innovations such as birth control. Part of the problem is that we just don't have as much concrete psych data where they are concerned.
Lastly, your rational but still (mostly) understanding approach to the topic is refreshing. It can still be a bit grating, though. Especially your name, which is a little pretentious even for me (I know I'm one to talk :P - I'll find a better one someday.) I rambled a lot, but hopefully this post was helpful.
Cheers,
Jekyll
And one more thing ...
I forgot to add this link to a thoughtful consideration of incest and ethics from Professor Tauriq Moosa, a tutor in ethics, bioethics and critical thinking at the University of Cape Town, South Africa. http://bigthink.com/think-tank/is-incest-wrong
Social Brainwashing?
By dismissing the taboo of incest without exploring why it is taboo and whether that social construct is based on anything more than subjective repulsion and opinion, you are doing the same thing that the people who react with knee-jerk repulsion against incest are doing. Never jump to conclusions without "Why?" and following that up with as much intellectual honesty as you can muster. As the philosopher Wittgenstein said, "Nothing is so difficult as not deceiving oneself."
This was mostly a good post,
This was mostly a good post, but I don't think you really addressed the real issue. People always seem to bring up the issue of pregnancy, and then abortion and whatnot, but that is largely irrelevant to the question of incest. It's really not that hard to avoid impregnating someone nowadays with all the preventative measures we've developed (condoms, pills, and what if one of the two is infertile?), and imo there's nothing wrong with abortion anyway.
A better question to ask is; in the absence of the reasonable possibility of pregnancy, and in such a situation as two consenting adults decide to have incestuous sex, is it morally wrong and if so why is it? Personally I cannot see any moral reason to think so that doesn't stem purely from prejudice or even bigotry.
I have family, and I also have the same 'yuck' feeling when contemplating any sexual situations involving them - even seeing my sister kiss her boyfriend recently I found myself practically nauseous. So it is not my preference for incest, rather I cannot see any logical reason for the taboo and hatred others have for it. Just because I (and you) do not feel a certain way about something does not mean that others cannot, or that their relationships cannot be justified because my (our) personal preferences don't agree with them; such a thing is practically the definition of bigotry.
End A Long Friendship Over Shocking Revelation of Incest?
Agree. Besides the cultural taboo, which tends toward a tyranny of the majority and bigotry, I have a hard time coming up with a good reason why incest is wrong if the partners are consenting adults. Even the genetic argument that it creates homozygosity, and thus promotes recessive alleles, damaging the survivability of the offspring by compacting unwanted traits, isn't convincing to me because that homozygosity could also conflate good genes that help the offspring and terminates the unwanted genetic traits.
QUESTION: If we can manipulate the DNA (i.e., "genetic engineering") and literally choose specific positive hereditary traits, while removing the negative ones, does that destroy the "procreative incest is wrong" argument from a scientific perspective?
I admit, I found this website because I'm nearly 100% sure that one of my closest friends and his sister have had, or are having, a sexual relationship. I was, and I guess still am, on the verge of ending our 25 year long friendship over it. He doesn't know that I know. I always thought that they were a lot more physically comfortable with each other than I am with my sister, but incest wasn't even a consideration. No way. Impossibile. But my friend, who is an alcoholic, always brings up stuff to me when he's hammered drunk that makes no sense unless what he's implying is an incestual relationship with his sister. My inclination is still not to hang out with him, distance myself from our unraveling bond, but we were so damn close and his family loves me, and I love them, including his sister. They're like my second family. I don't know what to do.
I don't quite understand why
I don't quite understand why you're considering ending your friendship. Does their relationship offend you so much?
It seems to me you already know that there's nothing inherently wrong with incest (without reproduction), so all that leaves is your own prejudice holding you back. Would you end the friendship if your friend revealed himself to be gay instead?
Perhaps you are not a friend he really wants in that case.
You must understand that I'm
You must understand that I'm new to this notion about incest. I've simply never had to confront it before. If I was set in my opinion or inclination to halt my friendship with this person, then I would not be on here writing about it. I'd just do it. I'm in unfamiliar territory on this subject.
It is a fact that my friend thinks that he has done the unthinkable, so I know he doesn't accept his actions that he engaged in with his sister, and I know that they both are horrified by the relationship, which ended a few years ago. They both moved way far away from home and each other. My buddy has told me some horrible things that he has done, but this one he will not say outright, if that gives you an idea about how he thinks of this.
One of my closest friends is a transsexual, and I've many gay friends. My transsexual friend doesn't even look like his birth gender and when I've told people that he has a vagina, they think I'm kidding, until he confirms it. We have fun with it, challenging people's notions and prejudices, LOL. If I sound to you like one of those people, it is only because this is new to me.
incest comments
I have to admit this is probably the most interesting discussion I have seen yet on Animals and Us. Thanks for your posts.
Hal
Thank you
Thank you for the forum and for bringing up and then allowing such a discussion. Questioning taboos and social norms can make a lot of people uncomfortable and upset. Following reason no matter where it leads can be, and has been for me, an odd and dangerous, but always interesting, journey!
Are you serious?
Nothing wrong? He has stated that his friend is an alcoholic, and has ONLY alluded to the sexual relationship with his sister when extremely drunk. I don't know WHAT kind of world you live in to think that that means that there is nothing wrong!
plenty
there is plenty wrong with abortion, AKA murder
Hal's response
You make a good point. However, let’s not confuse two levels of explanation – ultimate and proximate. Ultimate causation refers to the evolutionary function of a behavior or mental state. Proximate causation refers to the immediate causes (stimulus, motivation, etc.) of behavior, thoughts, or emotions.
In the blog, I was focusing on the ultimate level – that fact that the incest taboo seems to has the evolutionary function of reducing birth defects caused by inbreeding. The immediate sense of disgust associated with even thinking about incest is a proximate level of explanation. (As Robert Wright wrote in The Moral Animal – “Emotions are evolution’s hatchman.”)
Your description of this phenomenon is on target. In fact, Jon Haidt uses this scenario to study disgust. In discussing morality, I also discuss this scenario in some of my classes. My students are nearly always opposed on consenting sex between adult brother and sister even when there is no chance of pregnancy. When I asked them why, the usually cannot come up with a logical reason, other than “It’s disgusting!!!.”
Thanks for writing.
Hal
It was good until...
Your article started out pretty logical and professional sounding until you descended into opinions and insults at the end. I appreciate your understanding of the logic of the prolife argument, but then you tried to claim a lack of compassion in their consistency. You completely voided all compassion for the child. You are talking about taking one person's life in order to make someone else more comfortable. I contend that the most compassionate and merciful ruling is to preserve the life of the child.
Let Me Clarify..
We either read two different articles or you've ideological blinders on. Your contention that pro-choice folks don't consider the life of the unborn is actually your Achilles heal. If you understood that nobody is actually for abortion, and it's never a good thing when a woman gets an abortion, then you would've comprehended Hal's point that the absolutism of the pro-life position does not take anything besides the fetus into account, when, in fact, there are always varying factors involved that must be considered. A woman is a human being, too.
I would add to Hal's kid gloves criticism with a sharper one, that most pro-lifers don't actually care about babies. They only care about fetuses. What other conclusion can one draw when the same folks who unequivocally oppose abortion under any circumstances also oppose giving that mother and her baby entitlement/welfare assistance when she is not able to provide for the newborn? If all abortions were banned the entitlement programs would balloon to many times their current size. Somebody's gotta pay for that baby, and daddy all too often goes deadbeat and on the run. Foolish consistencies ....
the absolutism of the pro
Anonymous wrote:the absolutism of the pro-life position does not take anything besides the fetus into account
You mean, says you.
Now, I will grant that pro-lifers are not always consistent in their application of moral principles (who is?), but you directed your comment at the pro-life *position*, not the inconsistencies of individual pro-lifers.
The consistent pro-life position does not ignore compassion for the mother, it calls for balancing compassion for both mother and child. And it’s very difficult to see how any argument which concludes with terminating the life of an innocent baby could be compassionate.
wrote:A woman is a human being, too.
“Too” being crucial to the discussion.
wrote:most pro-lifers don't actually care about babies. They only care about fetuses.
To a pro-lifer you argument sounds like, “Pro-lifers don’t care about children, only toddlers”. Keep in mind that the pro-life position sees no relevant distinction between a fetus and a baby. A baby is morally entitled to the same protections and compassion whether pre- or post-birth. If you wouldn’t countenance the killing of a newborn in the name of compassion for the mother, there is for the pro-lifer no logical consistency in countenancing killing the same child a week or a month before birth.
wrote:also oppose giving that mother and her baby entitlement/welfare assistance
Watch out for false dichotomies. It does not follow that opposition to government welfare denotes lack of compassion, only a recognition that government can be a cure worse than the disease (but that’s another discussion).
Not sure about all this political correctness!
I do not think that giving the green light to so called consensual relationships between close relatives is the right way to go. I do not believe that a sexual relationship of that type develops in a family where things are OK. I believe that there is nearly always power abuse (parent to child, older to younger sibling, male to female etc) and where the abusive person sees a 'relationship', the abused person sees coercion.
The only example I know of this was a young man I counselled who has a physical disability and has had sex with his sister occasionally for many years. He enjoys the physical sensations, as he cannot masturbate and cannot find a partner, but he feels horrible about it after. He also feels that his sister is completely dominating the situation as she is able bodied and older than him.
Also, this PC acceptance reminds me of books written 30+ years ago by psychiatrists who took the same view. They were referring to father/ daughter incest, and took the view that it was a loving relationship that no one should interfere with. Anyone who knows anything about child sexual abuse by parents knows that this is BS. Those children grow up to have major problems in sexual and other relationships - just because the dad groomed them really well and didn't start f'ing them until they were teenage does NOT mean that the girl was a willing, somehow 'equal' participant!
It isn't political
It isn't political correctness. It's simply a matter of considering the situation, which could be many and varied - I'm going to go out on a limb and assume most incestuous relationships are never discovered, given what an extreme taboo it is in society. With that assumed, just because your experiences with incestuous relationships have been negative... should we then assume that all (or even the majority) of incestuous relationships are the same? That strikes me as very ignorant and reactionary. It is said the first step to wisdom is to know that you don't know anything... try it sometime.
They are not MY experiences!
I have read fairly extensively on the subject, and as mentioned have counselled someone (more than one actually). Obviously if it is not a problem then a counsellor is not going to hear about it, but as I mentioned before I think that the medical establishment, in their arrogance and patriarchal attitudes wrote off some incestuous relationships as loving, without considering any of the power imbalances in gender and age.
I am not seeking wisdom, so I do not need to heed your patronising advice, but thanks, it tells me all I need to know about someone who apparently supports incest without knowing anything about it!
Reiterating
Ellesar,
Welcome! It's so exciting to read another voice here that can edify and challenge my thoughts!
My responses are preceded by two asterisks (**) in the next line following each of your comments. A blank line separates the end of my response from your next comment.
Submitted by Ellesar on July 12, 2014 - 12:54am.
They are not MY experiences!
**Yes, they are. You are the counselor, counseling someone's experience. You are not counseling most or all experiences. So, you are addressing the matter from your experience(s) with specific patients. Not everyone who drinks alcohol is an alcoholic.
I have read fairly extensively on the subject ...
**Most of us commenting here have, too.
... and as mentioned have counselled someone (more than one actually).
**Some of us have, too.
Obviously if it is not a problem then a counsellor is not going to hear about it ...
**Are you assuming that all incidents of incest are abusive? If so, then why? There are many more examples of traditional (i.e., two heterosexual, unrelated, consenting adults) relationships requiring counseling. Does that mean that all traditional relationships are wrong?
... but as I mentioned before I think that the medical establishment, in their arrogance and patriarchal attitudes wrote off some incestuous relationships as loving, without considering any of the power imbalances in gender and age.
**This is my criticism, too, only from the antipodal point. To reiterate my first comment, copied/pasted in its entirety within quotation marks:
"What About Siblings?
Submitted by Gadfly on April 27, 2014 - 5:11pm.
[Dr. Herzog's] scenario is one where the sexual relationship is not just incest, but the power play of a parents using their own child as a sexual object. That's objectionable not just due to the incest factor in that abusive relationship. What about adult, consenting, siblings who won't, or cannot, procreate having a sexual relationship? How is that intrafamilial activity wrong beyond simply cultural norms?"
**Again, welcome, Ellesar! I am excited that there is another voice among us all!
************This ends my response specifically to Ellesar************
If I may be so bold, I'd like to make
AN APPEAL TO EVERYONE:
If you have not done so by the time you read this comment, then I request that you please read through the entire article and all of the comments thus far to familiarize yourself with the many points of agreement and disagreement, what points we have touched upon in their context, and then note those points we might have neglected so that you might challenge some or all of us and advance the discussion.
I beg everyone here to please refrain from any personal attacks/assumptions, being particularly mindful of the common ad hominem, straw man, and red herring attacks. The fewer of those that we have to battle with, the quicker we can draw clear, well-thought, evidenced conclusions.
Personally, I value differences of opinions when they are well-reasoned and sustained by the empirical evidence. The only thing that bores me more than agreeing with someone is if they are trying to "win" an argument or debate. Once ego joins the discussion, then the truth is subjugated and goes on holiday. I want to be on the side of the truth; I do not want to force the truth to be on my side. This is probably the only point on which I hope that everyone agrees, LOL!
Respectfully & Sincerely Yours,
Gadfly
Obviously if it is not a problem then a counsellor is not going to hear about it ...
**Are you assuming that all incidents of incest are abusive? If so, then why? There are many more examples of traditional (i.e., two heterosexual, unrelated, consenting adults) relationships requiring counseling. Does that mean that all traditional relationships are wrong?
No, I assuming the opposite, that there are relationships that exist that do not come to the attention of any professional because neither party considers them problematic.
I do accept that there may be some incestuous relationship where no more harm is done than in any relationship. I guess that my initial reluctance stems from the reality that the vast majority of sibling incestuous relationships start in childhood/ early adolescence, and I do not come from a position of believing that starting intense sexual relationships at such a young age is consistent with healthy maturation.
I am not referring to ANY incestuous contact, such as exploration and curiosity, which would likely be shortlived, but an actual relationship, which I suspect would stem from unmet needs in childhood, and would probably be rather intense.
I certainly do not assume that all incestuous relationships are wrong - certainly not in the moral sense. I do tend to assume though that most of them come from a place of dysfunction, but I concede that many relationships do, and people need relationships and take love and affection wherever they can find them.
incest
This taboo hasnt weeded out migraines epilepsy cancer nor psychopaths midgets downes syndromes giants intersexuals etc after how many centuries?
Carnovores
I like how you use faulty science at the very beginning of your post to justify your position while attacking another person for not checking their facts. It indicates you're an idiot and the rest of your post can safely be ignored. Carnivora ≠ carnivores. There are many animals that are carnivorous or omnivorous that are not in the order Carnivora (such as martens, pigs), and animals in the order that are not carnivorous (like pandas).
Seriusly, how did you get a PhD when you can't even perform basic research and have a first-grade level understanding of biology?
spelling error
Misspelled word is surrounded by asterisks.
They found a surprisingly small increase (about 4 percent) in birth defects among the children of married cousins. Incest between first degree relatives, however, was a different story. The researchers examined four studies (including the Czech research) on the effects of first degree incest on the health of the offspring. Forty percent of the children were born with either autosomal recessive disorders, congenital physical malformations, or severe intellectual deficits. And another 14 percent of them had mild mental disabilities. In short, the odds that a newborn child who is the product of brother-sister or father-daughter incest will suffer an early death, a severe birth defect or some mental *deficiently* approaches 50 percent.
Interesting Article
Hi Hal, I am wondering if any further study has been undertaken on the example you gave us with the Czech Children and comparing the less than 50% completely healthy children with their healthy sibling control group from different fathers. I would be interested to see for example if either group lived particularly longer than the other or were more prone to age related illnesses. Thanks.
Czech study
Hi Steve,
I have not seen any updates of the study. However, it is a great question. Sorry I don't have an answer.
Hal
Excellent article!
Sound logic and reasoning backed by wisdom and an appeal to compassion.
Abortion, Logical Consistency, Compassion
"I understand the pro-life argument. If you believe that human life begins at the moment sperm meets egg, it is perfectly logical to oppose abortion. But at what point do reasonable people temper logical consistency with compassion and common sense?"
I grudgingly admit that the lack of ANY exception in the official Republican position on abortion is logically consistent with the the party's statement on “sanctity of all human life.” But shouldn't logic sometimes be tempered with compassion? Emerson famously wrote, “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.”
Forcing a woman burdened with the psychological scars of incest to bear a child which has a roughly 50:50 chance of having mental disabilities or a severe birth defect is perhaps the ultimate example of a foolish consistency that appeals to little statesmen."
You understand the pro-life argument...to an extent. It is born out of compassion, but I don't think you see/understand that.
So lets say that an adult was born of incest/rape. Shoud we kill them? No. Should you kill a newborn rape/incest child? No. Toddler? No. Why then should we kill them as a child? For the sake of the mother? Is her burden more important than someone else's life? Compassion is there still. The child is going to be KILLED. The mother is only going to have to suffer the child (and she can give it up for adoption, so really all she has to suffer is its birth, which can be mitigated in a variety of ways though never fully abated).
Logical consistency should not make way for compassion. However, compassion should be part of the logic to begin with, and in this instance, it is. Republicans are just as compassionate as Democrats, but neither side seems to fully understand the other. I grew up in Southern California (San Diego). I was raised by a Republican family, in a very Democrat filled area. I like to think I have a (somewhat) unique perspective on the two sides.
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