Dr. McBride,
This article really is a great resource for parents and court professionals who are navigating through a high-conflict divorce from a narcissist. I am sharing it far and wide.
Thank you for writing it!
So you're not a "10" in every which way. But you're probably pretty spectacular in some way, and definitely good enough in most areas of life. If ever there were a time to stop beating yourself up for being human, it is now.
Verified by Psychology Today
Posted Feb 19, 2018
Why does it matter if a parent is a narcissist? How does that hurt a child? You may be asking these questions if you are a person co-parenting with a narcissistic ex; someone raised by a narcissistic parent; one who is in a relationship with a narcissist; or maybe a divorce professional working on a case that involves a narcissistic parent. Given my research and clinical experience, I want to provide some education and awareness about how this disorder hurts children.
First, let me explain that narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is misunderstood when applied to someone who is just boastful, arrogant, and all about themselves. While these traits are annoying and not fun to be around, narcissism is a deeper, more destructive disorder that has devastating effects on the people in relationships with the individual. It’s a difficult disorder to treat; some believe it is untreatable. The cornerstones of the disorder are a lack of empathy and the inability to tune into the emotional world of others.
So how does narcissistic parenting affect children?
Being raised by a narcissistic parent is emotionally and psychologically abusive and causes debilitating, long-lasting effects to children. It is often missed by professionals, because narcissists can be charming in their presentation, displaying an image of how they wish to be seen. Behind closed doors, the children feel the suffocation of self and struggle with loneliness and pain. The narcissist is not accountable for their own mistakes or behavior, so the child believes they are to blame and that they flunked childhood. Having worked as a mental health provider with thousands of children, as well as the adult children of narcissistic parents, I see the above symptoms again and again. The lifestyles differ, and the stories differ, but they all wave the same emotional banners. It’s quite a list. It takes serious recovery work to get better and feel better.
If you are the other parent, or part of the extended family, and are trying to ward off the effects of a narcissistic parent, you will have double duty as the responsible one. The best approach is to parent with empathy — the antithesis of narcissism. If you are a divorce professional working with a case that involves a narcissist, help the kids by first really understanding the dynamics of this disorder. Don’t minimize it. Make sure the children are in therapy and are learning assertiveness skills to use with a parent who does not emotionally tune into them. Put the kids first.
Note: Narcissism is a spectrum disorder, so think of it as a continuum ranging from low-level traits that we all have to some degree to a full-blown personality disorder. The higher the level of traits, the more damage gets done to children.
Dr. McBride,
This article really is a great resource for parents and court professionals who are navigating through a high-conflict divorce from a narcissist. I am sharing it far and wide.
Thank you for writing it!
I think a real problem we have here is protecting children when empathy isn’t solving problems. It may seem narcistic for parents to block a child I don’t want you playing there because some business parents really do know too much. Yes you don’t want children knowing that cops really do entrap and scare children you don’t want pharm reps making millions off legalizing drug treatments. To quote my therapist some people die never knowing.. guess what. There are a few of us that think they are so blessed. Yes since pure evil exists in the earth therapy is good, some peoples tolerance for nonfamiliar is less than others. Watch these cases. Some are not read, hey they’re being paid they don’t have time. Empathy. Don’t do to me what I got paid to do to you... yikes how do you even stop that when nursing homes show you pure evil. People tend to not want to go.
I read with interest. Much I can relate to, yet it is such an encompassing list. Analagous of an itch being a symptom of something to worry about? Not sure. As the disclaimer goes it's on a spectrum. I worry there is too much parsed from ordinary behavior to give a broad spectrum of diagnostic "needs". I say all that with due respect and interest.
I wish someone would make a list of what these traits sound like when the parent speaks. I have a hard time with this kind of list because of this.
I think both of my parents had some of these traits, but I can't make the leap to pinning the label on them...
If you want an awesome dramatic depiction of a narcissistic family dynamic, watch "The Fighter" with Mark Wahlberg and Christian Bale.
In the meantime, I can give some examples, but keep in mind that I was a "scapegoat" child. If you were a "golden child," your experience might be different.
Also, there are degrees of severity - my experience was pretty bad. I was mentally, emotionally, and physically abused by every member of my family. Although I mainly focus on my mother, my dad had issues, too. Consequently, my older brothers took my parents' cues and abused me on the regular. (There was also a single incidence of sexual abuse from the oldest brother.)
So anyway, off the top of my head, in random order:
1. They remind you how much you've cost them/how much your existence has burdened theirs. (When I was 18, my mother told me she had wanted an abortion, but my "hypocritical" father, who was pro-choice, "wouldn't let her." All my life, I had to hear about how I destroyed her body.)
2. Sometimes it's not what they say, but what they do or don't do. (My father raced cars as a hobby. When I was a month or two old, my mother went to the track to watch him. According to her, she "got tired of holding me," so she set me aside. On the bleachers. I rolled through a gap and fell to the ground, however many feet. She didn't take me to the hospital, but a CT scan as an adult showed severe trauma to the back of my brain. It was bad enough that my attending just kept asking about it, "This would have been a major blow to the back of the head as a child. Are you sure you don't remember ANYTHING like that?" Only later was I reminded of the bleacher fall.)
2. If you exert any kind of feeling that conflicts with their POV in any way, they'll either guilt trip you, try to make you look/feel crazy, or they become enraged. (As a 17 year old I was trying to explain to my mother how I felt hurt/angered by the way she treated me and her response was, with tears in her eyes because an aunt was watching, "I hope you have a daughter who causes you half as much pain, but I doubt I'll get my wish, because it would take one mean son-of-a-bitch to impregnate you, and I don't think that man exists.")
3a. Of course, there are never tears in her eyes when we don't have an audience. (The tears are functional, not emotional.The narcissist wants the world to see how awesome and long-suffering they are. Period. Full stop.)
3b. The full-blown narcissistic rage is a completely different animal from normal anger. You'll know it when you see it. Unless you're a hardened, competitive MMA fighter, the violence of it (even if they don't touch you) will freeze you in your tracks.
3c. Whether they actually get physical with you or just get super ugly and hateful with verbal abuse, it's always your fault. You gave them a "reason" to be that way. (It sounds like a cliche, but it's absolutely true. They literally try to get you to believe it's your fault, and as a child? That's pretty damaging.)
4. They don't support you in whatever excites you, they might even try to sabotage you in various ways (not driving you to practice or complaining about it all the time, telling you it's a waste of money, advising you to go into something "you're actually good at", not signing permission forms, etc.)
4a. When you're demoralized to the point of quitting something, or they simply force you to quit, they shame you about it. They use your "history of quitting" as another weapon to beat you with.
4b. Past failures are used to control you with despair, and it's frequently masked as concern, although not always. (Example: "Hey are you sure you want to take this risk? You failed out of x, y, z...I mean, you know this is a problem for you...")
5. They don't ask about you, except maybe in the most insincere, generic way. If you try to talk about something, no matter how important, you're met with indifference or irritation. They don't ask questions about what you say, unless they see it as an angle to criticize, judge, or attack. The first chance they get, they escape the conversation or twist it to be about them. (You: "I'm so excited! This cute boy smiled at me..." You show a yearbook picture of said boy and this might be their response: "Him? Really? You find him cute? Hmmm. He's kind of shrimpy, don't you think? You know, when I was your age, I had 3 boys fighting each other to take me out. And Mike...boy was he a looker!!")
5a. My #5 example was related to sexual attractiveness, but it could be about anything: your performance in school, in a sport, in a hobby, career.
6. The marginalization doesn't stop after adulthood. I'm overweight and my mother's very quick to talk about my "fat ass," but very recently, instead of a "Good job!" or a happy smile after I hiked up a mountain with my brother, the first words I heard from her were a disapproving, "God you look terrible!"
7. False narratives. The narcissist's "it's you, not me" story is absolutely going to be shared with anyone the narcissist wants sympathetic attention from. Even more-favored siblings will internalize it and believe it. What this translates to is that you'll find other people perpetuating the narcissist's abuse on you. (Example: My brother wanted me to move into his house with our mother. When I refused and said I was moving out-of-state, his response was, "Why? Why bother? You're just a miserable person. You're miserable here, and you'll be miserable there. You might as well stay and take care of Mom!")
This is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of depth and breadth. It's not just a case of one or two "bad moments" that a normal person might have in their lifetime. With a narcissist, it's a constant...one you can bank on. So I'd say, if your parents are still around and in your life, take note of future interactions with them.
It's my experience with my mom... except I just can't see her in most textbook descriptions.
The text book descriptions make the person sound evil, almost intentional.
My mother just seemed seriously unhappy. It's like everything you do hurts her so much that she has to hurt you back twice as hard, but she never can evaluate if she actually managed to get there that she can't stop pushing it.
I'm convinced that she doesn't know what she's doing. It's not just a question of empathy towards others, it's also as if she had no self awareness.
She doesn't want to look bad in public, but she is not attention seeking. I think she is always hurt by others because she doesn't see that people are separate from her... If someone is attentive to a task, she won't see their point of vue: they are doing something that requires attention. She'll see that she wants to talk to them and they are ignoring her.
If someone goes for a walk when she wants to clean the dishes, she won't see that the person might have indigestion and want a break before getting things done, because in her head finishing the dishes after
a meal before doing something else is unthinkable. It breaks her routine and instead of thinking that others may have different routines, she'lll say that they left her with all the work.
She visited me in my housenonce amd I said let's leave the dishes and go visit, I'll do it when you're gone. She couldn't. She did the dishes and told me the whole time that I was maling her do it and I repeated the whole time, leave it let's go... She couldn't see how rigid it was that she couldn't leave me to do the dishes when I wanted after she was gone iny own home where it would not disturb her later.
Some of it is just extreme habit
Yet, she break some rules... like you said about health. I had asthmay entire childhood but she wouldn't bring me to a Dr because she was afraid he would ask her to stop smoking.
Anyhow, I still have asthma!
I can wholeheartedly connect with your examples. My mom, a nurse, would put us kids in a steam filled bathroom to relieve the asthma while actively smoking. Our last visit was a repeat of your dishes scenario. Everthing revolves around cleaning, cooking or tv. I have been no contact for 1.5 yrs now. There is no closure because the abuse is mostly just being invisible. Have you found a way to get closure on your chronically un-selfaware parent?
THIS:
I have been no contact for 1.5 yrs now. There is no closure because the abuse is mostly just being invisible.
“I'm convinced that she doesn't know what she's doing. It's not just a question of empathy towards others, it's also as if she had no self awareness.
She doesn't want to look bad in public, but she is not attention seeking. I think she is always hurt by others because she doesn't see that people are separate from her... If someone is attentive to a task, she won't see their point of vue: they are doing something that requires attention. She'll see that she wants to talk to them and they are ignoring her.
If someone goes for a walk when she wants to clean the dishes, she won't see that the person might have indigestion and want a break before getting things done, because in her head finishing the dishes after
a meal before doing something else is unthinkable. It breaks her routine and instead of thinking that others may have different routines, she'lll say that they left her with all the work.“
Wow, thank you! This gave me a gentler perspective on my mother.
I want to say I’m sorry. No child deserves to grow up that way.
After reading this I began thinking about my aunt. I never thought Of her as being a narcissist possibly only as a undiagnosed bipolar. Anyway, it’s been frustrating for me to just learn to love myself. I feel like it’s just something that will never go away.
My mother and father also fit into these descriptions, is possible to have multiple family members?
And at what point do you have some of these tendencies bc that’s what you learned? How do you handle it?- yes a narcissists child. I need to always work on myself bc who I am isn’t good enough.
I recently passed my boards for Nursing and one would think I should be proud of myself. I said after I passed Nursing school with honors that I just had to take my boards to feel accomplished, after I passed my boards, I now say once I receive my license number. When will I be proud of me? When will it not matter that my mom hasn’t said congratulations to me?
I just wanted to say I found your descriptions to be interesting and something to talk about with my therapist.
I appreciate that you took the time to comment - and, for what it's worth - congratulations on passing your Nursing boards.
Since you mentioned a therapist - yes! Definitely open the conversation with him/her. Talking about shared experiences here can be helpful in its own way, but it doesn't replace the nuanced insight you'll get from a trained clinician - someone who meets with you face-to-face.
I can confidently answer one of your questions, though: Yes, it's possible to have multiple narcissists in one family. I don't think it's that uncommon, actually. But even if there's *only* one true narcissist in the group, that individual's dysfunction will attract and surface all sorts of toxic personality traits in other people.
So both parents (or any siblings) could be narcissists. Maybe one parent is "just" passive, codependent, or another less sinister condition, but their behavior warps under the influence of the narcissist. They might become what's known as a "flying monkey" - a narcissistic lieutenant of sorts.
Appreciate the list you've put in your comment above. I got a lot from it .
Cheers
PG
Thank you! I'm glad the list was useful to you.
Every word in your comment I have experienced in my family. Every word. Even down to the sexual abuse from an older brother.
After finally telling my mother of the abuse in my 20's she did and said nothing to my brother. He continued to be her favorite child, (his birthday is the day after hers).
And the rage is real, I confronted my brother in my 40's over the sexual abuse and how he never acknowledged it he went to my mother and father and told them what he did and to this day they feel that I should've just kept this abuse to myself for the sake of the family and how they would look to others knowing what happened to me as a child.
My mother now hates me and my children (2 girls), because now family members are aware of the abuse and her role in ignoring it. My father for whatever reason is going along with whatever my mother tells him despite the fact that he knows this woman has lied all their married life. As for my brother well, he's pleased with the fact that my parents still love and support him knowing what he did to me.
Frankly I believe my mother was hoping that this family secret wouldn't come about until after she died.
Needless to say, I'm glad she's still around to witness the fall of this false pristine family image she spent so decades working towards.
I no longer speak to them anymore...its funny all my life I always felt or my family always made me like I would never survive without them and their input when in actuality my life has never felt better because I'm trusting my instincts and feelings now. Which is something my family tried desperately to erase from me since the age of 4.
Hi, Melanie - I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner. And I'm sorry for everything you've lost because of your "family." I could chat for ages about false narratives and the power of defense mechanisms. It's CRAZY how far people will stretch their brains to maintain their sense of not being a monster. I really is unbelievable, until you witness it firsthand.
I'm glad my story could give you some support in fighting against the crazy of your family. Here are a few more details that should make you feel even LESS alone:
I was about 4 years old when I was molested. My brothers are 6.5 and 7.5 years older than I, so they were 10 and 11, not far from 11 and 12. A few months after the molestation, I heard my middle bro talking with his friend about sex, and I asked him about it. After he explained sex to me, I said our oldest brother had done that to me. (He didn't, not exactly, there was no penetration, but what he *did* do was close enough for a 4 year old to be confused.)
Well, later that day...maybe the next...my oldest brother jumped me in our front yard. He grabbed me and started beating on me, eventually hitting me so hard I went to the ground. He stood over me and yelled, "If you ever say anything like that again, I'll kill you!" My middle brother just stood there and watched him do it.
Although I focused on my mom in my first post, believe me when I say that I had good reasons (i.e. experience) to physically fear every member of my family. My whole family was sick, so I kept silent - until I was 43. That's when I confided in a friend I'd known for 26 years - since high school. That's how broken my sense of trust is.
More recently, I was outraged by my mother's dismissal of Weinstein's victims, so I dropped The Molestation Truthbomb on her ass. She teared up for a minute, then started talking about something inconsequential. Only a month ago, I reminded her of the molestation, and she acted shocked, saying, "You never told me that!" The sad part is, I don't think she's faking the memory lapse. I think she just can't bring herself to care about me enough to hear me or care about my pain - especially when it makes her or her sons look bad.
Which brings me to the middle brother. He was certainly old enough to remember what happened, but he's never once asked me about it. Our relationship is pretty good these days, but I know he's always maintained a false narrative that I lie/exaggerate all the time. Which is utter bullshit, because he knows I'm actually one of those off-putting-with-her-honesty types. But like I said, people will twist their brains any way that helps them sleep at night - especially when narcissistic dynamics are at play.
So Melanie, even though we don't know each other, I hope you understand that I see you, I believe you, and I'm with you in spirit. Narcissism is a family disease, and it's generational. So no matter how much it might hurt, it's best for you and your girls that you've gone your own way. I'm proud of your bravery.
You are a beautiful writer. I hope you write for a living. I’m so sorry for all that happened to you. You seem like a lovely person with a beauftiful heart. To quote my therapist, the greatest gift we can give ourselves is to know ourselves and you certainly seem to. And you are also able to articulate what you feel beautifully. You are a survivor and a talented writer. I wish you well.
Jaybird, thank you so much for your fantastic examples of how your narcissistic mother behaved. I have so many examples from my own childhood that I could literally write a book listing them! I'm you could, as well.
I struggled for so many, many years not actually living life, but merely existing in survival mode, because my psyche had been so damaged as a child. But it has taken so many years of therapy and doing my own self-healing work to even realize that I had been damaged. My mother programmed me to believe that I was the most awful, horrible human being on earth, and that I was the cause of all of the problems in the family. What a revelation to find out that it was HER all along, not me!
I am happier now, and have a stronger sense of myself than I ever have before. I still have struggles, but at least I can operate like a relatively normal person in the world today, and I don't feel suicidal all the time, like I did for so many, many years. I still am in contact with my mother, but it is on a limited basis. Once in a while, I find myself falling into her spider's web, and I have to remember that she can't be trusted, and I need to guard myself against her.
Anyway, I just wanted you to know that it is so comforting to know that some other people, like yourself, know exactly what I went through as a child, and how difficult it is to overcome our programming. I don't talk about it much to others, because most people just don't get it. Unless you've been through it yourself, you really can't understand the damage being raised by an extreme narcissist causes.
I'm truly sorry that your mother was so horrible to you. Those were awful and mean things she said and did. You didn't deserve it!
Hi Christine - I apologize for not responding to your beautiful post sooner. Thank you for sharing your journey with me. You've given me a North Star to follow with your resilience and bravery. I teared up while reading your thoughts, because it's eerie how familiar they are to me.
Like, it's so true - the sense of isolation. I feel like I've passed through an opaque curtain that only a few people know about. Frankly, I haven't had much luck connecting with folks who don't speak fluent Trauma. At this point, I've encountered too much disbelief, wariness, judgmentalism, and polite-but-distant sympathy to keep trying.
And I know exactly what you mean by "survival mode," though I call it "treading water." It's where I'm not swimming anywhere...don't have the energy or the motivation to even THINK about swimming anywhere...I don't even know that I WANT to keep swimming at all, because I've learned that wanting anything is a dangerous and painful proposition...so I just stay in the same place, treading water.
Oh, and the spider web reference - I love that. It's perfect. Just when you thought it was safe...hahaha. It's never safe. Not really. **sighs at the sad predictability of it all**
I know, after living with a spouse with NPD, that you don't get complimented very often, so let me compliment you. You are very articulate, and you should write a book about your experience with your Mom. My boys are getting their identity in life through me, their father, the responsible parent, but their NPD mother has done her damage. The examples you gave were incredible in explaining the "boots on the ground" battle that children go through with a narcissist. Spouses of a narcissist wined up feeling as much like a child as their kids if they are not familiar with how they are being victimized. I will say it again though jaybird, thank you for your comments.
Thank you, Chad. I'm glad the list was helpful for you. I'm very sorry to hear about your co-parenting situation. I'm not a parent myself, but I once heard it described as "having your heart outside your body." So I can only imagine how vulnerable you must feel on behalf of your sons, knowing the influence their mom could have on them.
I strongly recommend a therapist for your situation, one who specializes in narcissistic family dynamics. You might not have to see him/her that frequently, but just enough to make sure everything's tracking. He/she might even prove helpful if you find yourself in a custody or visitation battle.
Amazon has some books you might want to look at:
"Will I Ever Be Free of You?: How to Navigate a High-Conflict Divorce from a Narcissist and Heal Your Family" - by Karyl McBride, PhD
"Divorcing a Narcissist: Advice from the Battlefield" - by Tina Swithin, a mom who's writing from her divorce experience
Also, since my first post, I've watched another movie that gives an excellent, nuanced portrayal of a family under the influence of a narcissistic father; it's called "The Meyerowitz Stories."
The trailer makes it look like a comedy, and it has plenty of funny beats, but the real selling point isn't its humor. It's a very poignant depiction of the ways a narcissistic parent will divide and conquer their children, giving each a role, which affects their development and their relationships to one another. You've got the golden child (Stiller), the scapegoat/co-dependent slave (Sandler), and the forgotten child (Marvel).
Good luck with your sons - it sounds like you did the right thing for them and for yourself.
Chad, I just found this article and your comment and I might have something relevant to say. My Mom is 93 and was and is a Narc. Granted her Mom was AWFUL and her Dad a doormat, so she to this day is looking for compassion. But what she put us through as kids was just flat out physical and emotional abuse. Even today when I take her to a Dr. Appointment she likes to comment, "well that's not the route I would take." In my mind I just say "go F yourself, I don't care what you think."
But the important point is about my Dad. Even though he challenged and fought with her daily it never made a difference and I believed that a bad marriage was "normal." But he truly was a solid guy, critical thinker, and an excellent teacher. I am 60 now and so much of my "foundational thought and actions, my solid stuff," is a direct copy or influenced by his actions, words, and behaviors. I don't want to copy his relationship methods and I can't understand how he made such a poor choice but his steadiness, positive messages, understanding beliefs towards me---with some exceptions really made a difference in my life.
My wife's Mom is another total Narc and her Dad a doormat. At 53 my wife is still floundering and has low self esteem, trust etc. I think it's because whatever her Mom wanted or demanded her Dad gave it. For me I just take the best parts I learned from my Dad and a little from Mom and figure it out for myself. Without Dad's prescence I would be toast.
Thank you. I am a messy mix of emotions right now - I am 48 and I just realized what my mother is and how I have been manipulated and - I hate to admit it - abused all my life. I do not live close to my mother, she is in EU, I my husband an my son live in Asia. Powerful tool for guilt tripping in her hands - “you took my only grandson away” for instance. I have visited her every summer or Christmas vacation for 20 years with my son and husband, bearing gifts and giving her money, trying to establish a connection between her and my son, trying to show him “ hey, you do have a grandma, you do have family here, you belong here, too” only to be criticised about my parenting, the imagined behaviour of my son, the amount of homework I had to carry (he had school asignments that had to be done, no excuses). She did lash out at him every time (but with me as a shield between them I think he did not much realise it). The last visits though were exhausting. Her attacks increased and became vicious. The last time - 2 years ago, when I vowed to never visit again - she made him cry. He was 19 at the time and living independently as a Math student, having As all around and never getting into any kind of trouble. It broke my heart.
My son entered graduate school this year - he will start in spring - and when i told my mother, she snarled that all cretins do masters these days and why does he need that for, anyway, he should go to work not parasitate his parents. My mother was a high school teacher and always bragged about her two diplomas, ignoring the fact that I have a master and i teach in college and my husband has a ph.d and basically is a rocket scientist.
I feel like I am ranting but…
I suffered from severe depression for 15 years now but only now I got to the root of the problem - it’s her - and I am still in shock to have seen the reality. And I really do not want to see her anymore.
I just found this description of narc mothers on parrishmiller that describes mine point by point, no exceptions. Reading it I had, and still have flashbacks of how we interacted to the present day.
More than that I just now have admitted what I always knew, deep inside, that she did physically and mentally abused my grandfather, her own father. Nobody knows this, she only did this abuse for me to know and see, correctly assuming that I could do nothing to stop it. I was just turned 18 and went to univ. when my grandmother died, and my grandfather was very lonely and very depressed. Whenever he came to visit our house he was preached that he should learn to live by himself and sent back home. He was 80 at the time. When he had an accident, years later - I was already living in another city after graduation and dealing with a new job and struggling to pay the bills - he was forced to move in with my mother. After all, she had the space and living alone herself (she is divorced and remained single to this day). From that day until his death at 99 he was shoved in a room, never taken outside ( “ i cannot carry him up and down the stairs” , “ he is too frail to walk outside” etc) never given true medical care. He was a professor and a scholar and a researcher, he loved to read and write - when he lost his eyesight due to cataracts he was never taken to have the operation; he was never, before that, taken to ajust his reading glasses and she derided him when he tried to read using a magnifying glass. She limited his world little by little while playing the martyr daughter who takes care of her elderly and senile father - which he was not. I tried to suggest one or another - I am not entering the details - only to be shut down (you don’t know the truth, you don’t know how hard it is, he terrorizes me, you are an egotistic monster and I sacrifice myself for everybody etc). Once I got my own place I did think to take my grandfather with me. But for that I would have had to explain why to the rest of my family who really believed that she is a martyr and to my husband, who knew nothing about it, and to my in-laws, controlling and interfering narcs themselves. And my husband and I were living in an appartment that was theirs at the time (which we later bought from them).
We had to distance ourselves from them so we left the country and the freaking continent they were in, with nothing than two suitcases and a baby abandoning absolutely all material posessions we had there - and we were made sure that we were not entitled to have anything - and started from zero.
I was determined in my leaving after one of my mother rages right on Cristmas 20 years ago, when she accused me of being an egotistic monster (again!) among others and making sure I know that she has always been reading my diaries (my highschool diaries were kept hostage by her, I was not allowed to take anything with me, not even a picture, when I left her home at 18)
We did visit, though, as I said, like true trained monkey children of narcissists, but of course nothing changed. My grandfather retreated into himself more and more and I was not allowed to be alone with him anytime I visited.
And one day I got the news that he broke a hip, had a delayed and unsuccessful hip surgery and is bedridden. She told me when we next met that she shoved him back into his room (and he fell and broke his hip) and closed the door and did not check on him because she was having guests and “ he was being nosy” and she was stressed. Also “ stress” made her insult him in front of only me, hit him and punish him. AND I DID AND COULD NOT DO ANYTHING.
I do not know how, if ever, I will come out of this. I alternate between anger and sorrow and numbness.
I need help, even if I the only thing i can do right now is writing here.
I am so sorry that you had to go through that! But recongnize your strength. Which the narcissist wil fight against and make you feel guilty for being. Strong and independent, not egotistical. Reading your words made me realIze that maybe I shouldn’t go and see my mother who also exhibits similar behavior. She is also bipolar and schizophrenic. I can’t tell you if it’s related to her narcissism. But I will say I have made excuses for her behavior.
I hope you go to a counselor. To help you forgive yourself. Forgive yourself for your grandfather, forgive yourself for saving yourself, forgive yourself for the pain she inflicted on your son.
How could you fight against her and your family? You are only one person. You are emotionally intelligent and saw through her BS and got out. I’m sure it’s not easy being away from your culture and what you know, but you did what was best. You did what you had to do. I’m sure that added to the depression. It’s time, to move forward bc we only plan for the future not the past. Everyday you push forward and your head is still in the past. What’s done is done.
Embrace your accomplishments. Through your words you give me strength to keep working at moving forward.
I feel guilt and shame and fear for what I wrote above. I do not know how to deal with what happened to my grandfather and how I did nothing.
I do not know how, if ever, should or could tell my son all this. We have a very honest relation except this, and though he may be already guessing what's going on, we never touched this part of our lives.
I am angry at my mother and at the same time I do pity her, not in a pejorative way, and I do question my reality despite the fact that what I am reading here, especially Jay's post, verifies that I am not that paranoid (I do question myself all the time, it may be a deeply instilled reflex).
I talked to my husband and I have his support. But I do not clearly see what I have to do further beside going back on SSRIs for depression and write here. Counselling in matters like these where I am does not exist due to cultural stereotypes among others and the only advice I got was to go NC - and I did not even give the details of my relationship with my mother.
I just got the name for what my mother is and - this is really hard to accept - the abuse and terror she inflicts on me this week. I feel dirty and, although I also feel the need to be heard (to complain, says my moter's voice in my head), and be confirmed that I am not (paranoid, as my mother says) exagerating anything.
Thank you for replying to my message, chimmie, and be strong yourself and trust yourself in the decisions you may need to make in your situation. My heart goes to you.
Your comments are chillingly accurate!
Hope this helps,
where your parents together and are they still together? I find that people that have been together tend to take on the traits of the other person and vice versa Maybe this is why you cannot attribute the narc traits to either. But does it really matter which one it came from??
Hello bennny Kay. I am the golden-child & my sister is the self- sabotager. Here's an example from my own childhood that is still at my forefront some 30 years later.
Without really trying, I was an honor student from middle school though my college years. One particular day after school my senior year, I brought home an award letter to my mom, detailing an awards ceremony & dinner for all the students & their families. I was really excited to be able to join my fellow classmates in celebrating our 4 years hard work & accomplishments. I gave my mom the letter & her response was, "We have to go to another one of these damn awards programs!?" Needless to say I was crushed. We did go to the program but was certainly all for show. My mom didn't want to look bad by not attending. She was miserable & complained the entire evening. I sat at the ceremony table with my classmates & just felt like i was embarrassing my mother by being in public.
My sister on the other hand, would bring home notes from her teachers, requesting meetings with my mom to discuss her bad grades & social butterfly demeanor. My mom pleasantly responded & said "When do we have to go?"
These were very, very mixed lessons for me as a young adult, though at the time, i didn't know any better. I just thought it was normal to feel jealous of my younger sister for being mom's "best friend".
i hope this small example may shed a little light & help you become more mindful of words you hear & little instincts you feel internally. Trust them! I'm in my 40's & currently married to a wonderful man who was raised in a healthy family enviornemnt. It was tough the first few years of our relationship but he has really put forth effort to accept me, understand me & know help me recovery. Again, as a child, I didnt know anything my mom did was unhealty or toxic. It's my mom. She's my leader, my soul, my value. It wasnt until my husband & i had had terrible clashes of belief systems that we started comparing my unhealthy experiences with his healthy experiences. Now that i am open & aware of my narcissist upbringing, we understand that i am 2 different people. The girl he fell in love with is my true- authentic self. The person he wants to run from is the narcissist value system. He doesn't blame me. I don't blame my mom. She didn't know any better & i am fighting everyday to recognize & recover.
It's incredibly difficult to admit to yourself that your mom or father is not the person you have valued them to be. You are bursting your own bubble & questioning every experience & value you held as child. But... if you can do this, you will have flipped that coin and can begin your own recovery & break the toxic cycle within your own family!
Good Luck!
They are experts at manipulation. It's all about screwing with their children's minds. Whether it is positive or negative depends on the role (Golden or Scapegoat) that they have selected for you to perform in. In my mother's case:
- Calling me fat, even though she was the one preparing my meals
- Physical abuse, including spanking with a "cat of nine tails," and being forced to kneel on dried beans
- Following me to school to humiliate me in front of my friends
- Chasing girls away that came to see me at home
- Denouncing everything that I ever accomplished as an adult, including houses that I bought, my 100% academic scholarship, interfering in my marriage(s)
In Golden brother's case-
- Having a special picture scrapbook of him
-Allowing him to select his and MY wardrobe
- Buying him pretty much whatever he wanted
- Boasting about his "success" in a local band
-Buying 5 cars for him, which he ultimately ruined
- She lit up whenever he entered a room. Never had a bad word to say about him. When he was institutionalized in his 20's for Schizophrenia, I was directed not to share that info with an estranged brother, or extended family.
If you REALLY want to find out if a parent is Narcissistic, keep in mind that they are presenting a false image to the world, one that makes them look and feel superior. If you expose that fact through some word or action (remember they are controllers), you will see a fury that will leave you shaking in your boots. The price you pay is that you will immediately and permanently be on top of their s**t list. Take my word for it. Good luck.
is an extreme example. She is an extreme malignant, covert narcissist. She is also on the autism spectrum, and I belive the two conditions together are especially toxic. She basically ticks most of the boxes of all the "official" personality disorders, bar histrionic. Her anxiety levels are off the charts, but are still easily matched by her extreme passive aggression, anger, rage, self pity, hatred and emotional sadism. I'm convinced she is the most cowardly human being in the world. She is basically afraid of "everything", and barely dares to venture out of her flat unless someone is there to support her. She is almost 100% dependent on my father to take care of her.
To make it even worse, my father is a moderately retarded autist (I'll guess his IQ is no more than around 60) with ADHD and extreme sensory and anger/rage issues. He has zero patience and will explode for the slightest thing. The combination of low IQ and extreme temper is very toxic.
The odds of two such retards finding each other, marrying and having children, is of course very small. Their marriage is very strong, as my father will support my mother no matter what crazy stuff she is up to.
This is heartbreaking. Your mother and father defend each other against the world (and who else would? after all) but where does that leave a child? Undefended, unsupported and uncared for. There is a lot of autism in my husband's family (largely undiagnosed): both his parents have a very short fuse and are control freaks, they are cold people who are VERY poor at social cues and at empathy. But because they are both high-achievers in academia and research, and somehow managed to hold onto these well-paid jobs (I wonder how, given their very obvious difficulties) I think it was assumed by my husband's teachers, for example, and by other adults that there wasn't a serious problem at home. There is a powerful narrative right now that promotes the idea that ASD is "not a disability, only a difference" and it's a narrative that leads to lots of people ( relatives of people with ASD and also many people with ASD themselves) not being adequately helped and supported. This is something that really needs to change.
Of course, ASD is on a spectrum, and there are plenty of individuals that are doing relatively OK, but they are still socially impaired compared to normal humans. As you moves down the spectrum, thing begin to look bleak.
Both my mother and father are very dysfunctional. What a team they make! But they have somehow gone under the radar of the child welfare, probably because there haven't been any drug abuse, and outward they appear to be just very shy and somewhat "strange". And we kids just thought their behaviour was just normal, being dead scared of my parents was just the way it should be!
My mother is basically like a female version of Adam Lanza - on steroids! No, she hasn't killed anyone, but in her mind she has killed tens of people. She is just insanely hatefull. I could be physically punished for the slightest thing; I remember having my pants dropped and being spanked just for tilting a glass of milk! Sheer accidents would alwayst be harshly punished. And when my dad returned home, she would complain to him and he would of course always take her side, no matter what. Any "discussion" with her would end when she exploded after a few seconds, turn her back and say "don't talk to me!", and then sulk for several hours after. She is a world champion of passive aggression. One afternoon, when she felt we were a bit slow to clear up our toys from the living room, she exploded and stormed out of the house, while more than indicating she would never come back. All my father coud say was "that's what happen when you don't listen!" Of course she turned back in an hour or so, stii furious, saying nothing but sending us the "look that could kill". She had probably just been right outside the door all the time, feeling sorry for herself.
I can't remember a single time I received a hug or kiss from my mother, let alone being told I was loved, not a single time!
And of course she has absouletly no insight at all! She suffers from severe ASD, OCD, several anxiety disorders, extreme insomnia and an extreme mix of several personality disorders: I even suspect she has Fragile X syndrome or some other genetic disorder, because both she and several other members of our family looks strange, with narrow face, big nose and weak chin, But the only thing she will admit is being "somewhat neurotic" and having a "nice girl syndrome"!
Even my father is pretty close to being as mentally ill as Adam Lanza was. He is probably just "inches" from being a totally non-functional autist. He has a very low IQ, and any attempt of having a serious conversation with him ends in "I don't understand any of that". He too has no insight at all, and the low IQ combined with extreme sensory and anger issues is extremely toxic. Just normal noise from normal children play was enough to trigger some real hair-raising outbursts. Where a normal father would probably just calmly say "hey, kids, can you be a bit more quiet?", he would just explode, follow up with a look that could kill and often being physical abusive, too. There was never a warning, always from zero to houndred in a split of a second. Apart from being a mentally retarded autist, he probably also has some severe version of ADHD and even possibly Tourettes, he very often have some strange grimaces. He can hardly say a whole sentence without swearing or adding a "my god", while rambling away, having very poor articulation. Having no insight at all, he is of course very critical of other people, and the "conversations" he has with my mother is really out of this world. They think they are basically flawless, while everybody else is of course anything but that.
Both were (and still are) extremely unpredictable, and in my entire childhood I was scared to death of them, always walking on egg shells just to try not provoke them, but they somehow found a reason anyway. During my entire childhood I was looking forward to the day I could physically fight back. But even as an 6 foot and 200 pound adult I was scared of them, and was very sensitive about what they said. Worst of all, growing up in an environment like that, I thought this was normal, I thought this was just the way parents were! After all they didn't drink, they didn't do drugs and they exercised and was in generally good physical shape. In a perverse way, I was proud of them! Talk about Stockholm syndrome!
But now, in my 50ies, having been diagnosed with Aspergers myself and having all sorts of mental "trouble", suicide thoughts, depression and anxiety, I have realised what really went on. And I see that my whole family have been affected. My brother, too, is undoubtedly on the ASD spectrum (with a strange look), but he is high functional and has both a family and a job. But even his son is clearly autistic, even he with that "Fragile X look". My sister seems to have got the best of it, but she too is struggling with sever insomnia, perhaps indicating a touch of ADD. But her son is a non-functional autist, and even her daugher is very likely a severly affected aspie. My son, too, is clearly an aspie, but a high functional one. My daughter seem to have been "spared", but she struggles with anxiety and depression.
What a mess!
you having the strength of writing what you wrote and describing what you described and seeing what you saw and have been exposed to will help others that also now feel beaten and broken and reduced to seeing themselves as little more than garbage and unworthy to live.
Thank you.
Mental health is not something that is dealt with enough empathy (because a therapist/doctor should put themselves in the mindset of each patient and that is ... messy, to say the least) and sometimes, more often than not, with not at all.
A mess, indeed, as you said.
I have no wisdom at the moment as I am a mess myself. I cried reading your post and I felt that I have to let you know that myself and many readers here feel for you and wish you good through your journey.
But I believe and, reading your post, I am sure you know that truth is powerful and redeeming.
How do we educate family law judges? Narcissists are often guilty of parental alienation but alternatively, they also charge the protective parent of parental alienation and succeed in winning custody. The reason for this is because the criteria for establishing parental alientation leaves the protective parent in a catch 22 position. The very act of reporting abuse is twisted into an act of alienation and alienation is made out to be worse than physical and emotional abuse, which is overlooked in favor of alienation as child abuse. It makes zero sense. Family law judges are woefully uneducated about recognizing the signs of narcissistic abuse and are often fooled by the narcissists claims that they are the victims, when the true victims are the children who end up in the custody of narcissist parents.
I have been blown away by hearing these stories. It sounds exactly like my life. My entire family is narcissistic and being made to feel insignificant and nonexisitant was my normal. My mother went so far as to get involved with a man who openly told her that he wanted nothing to do with her children. She was more than happy to do his request. My older siblings left home leaving me there with nowhere else to go. Completely by myself for the most part. My mother wanted nothing more than spending all her time with him.
The damage these parents do to these children like myself is unthinkable. I spent the majority of my life thinking I had to be this awful person my family always told me I was. Even though I realized they did that to boost their own ego. I still felt like that horrible person and wondered why they couldn't love me.
I feel ya. I had the same thing in my childhood. I had a mean narcissistic mother that was cruel beyond description. She taught my brother how to be as mean as she was and rewarded him for it. He is still mean to me and is also a narcissist. All I ever wanted is to be loved and accepted ... it never came. All i can say for your future is be careful who you invite into your life. We victims often find someone like our parents to be with because its a 'normal' feeling. find someone who will love you just as you are.
Thank you for your comment, Richard. I agree with needing to be careful with who we get involved with. Good advice for anyone, but particularly for people raised by narcissists. I only found out about narcissism a few years ago (after having been to multiple therapists and psychiatrists over my lifetime, and none of them ever mentioning that this could be why I was having so many problems!) Now that I understand the truth of who and what my mother really is, and the damage she did to me, I can now look back on my relationships over the years and see that there were definitely a few narcissists in there! In those relationships, I felt the same way I did growing up with my mother. It makes so much sense now.
Thank you for your insight, and I am truly sorry that you had it so bad growing up. It is truly a soul-crushing experience, and I hope that you have experienced some healing in yourself, and that your life is better now.
I heard a good phrase, " just because someone treats you like a dog doesn't mean you have to bark.
I'm sorry. It's so unfair - the emotional legacy that such people can leave behind. I'm glad you have a sense of validation now - it's important (and feels a bit heavenly) to realize that there are people who believe and understand you.
If you're interested in a book suggestion, I recommend "Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving". Not only does it provide plenty of validation, but it can help you identify and address that emotional legacy I mentioned earlier.
Great article!! I feel like I’m doing everything I can to support my 8 and 10 year old daughters. I am concerned about some of their behaviors that I hear about at dads house and see when they return to me. Bullying and manipulation/people pleasing, respectively. Does anyone have any insight on how to help fight these behaviors? I don’t tolerate them at my house and we discuss these behaviors a lot... are there any other resources? Thanks!!!
Some parents, including author Jen Waite, advocate telling children the truth about the other parent or educating them about narcissistic behavior. Google "telling the kids mom/dad is a narcissist" and you should find some good information.
Kids do figure out sooner or later, but I personally think that letting them know sooner will give them the self awareness necessary to avoid following in the narcissistic parent's footsteps. Your spouse got it from his parent(s), your daughters are at risk too. You can also help them see the difference between narcissistic and normal, caring, and empathetic behavior by modeling the latter. Unless their father is toxic or abusive, they can still have a good relationship with him.
If you're in the middle of a custody battle, however, say nothing.
Ns are, by definition, toxic and abusive. I really can't think of a single example I have heard of of a narcissistic person with whom a child (including an adult child) could have a good relationship. People capable of healthy relationships are not Ns!
As an adult survivor of a narcissistic parent, to know that it is now acknowledged is a huge step forwards for me. My father was the narcissist, and was quite, quite sadistic and misogynistic. He often referred to me as 'the one we didn't want', because my parents were forced to marry due to my Mother falling pregnant with me after her very first sexual experience. She thought she would be escaping her own extremely abusive mother and step-father. From the frying pan into the fire, is the saying she often referred to. I managed to persuade my Mother to leave my father when I was just 13. He became incestuous after that. luckily, he found a replacement fairly quickly, and my siblings, (4 younger brothers), and I were separated and sent to different relatives/social care. My eldest brother and I remained with him, moving into his new love's home and family. We were not made to feel welcome, being treated as a nuisance and 'below' her own boy and girl. They received 10 times the pocket money we did for example. I contracted scabies at my new school, and when I returned 'home' early that afternoon and told her, she threw me out, not letting me get anything to take with me. I hitchhiked to my great grandmother's house alone. My brother didn't hang on long after that. Pretty soon he was shipped off into care. His crime? Catching her kids in bed together! Unsurprisingly, all of this has resulted in a very mucked-up me, no self-esteem, no self-belief and very little self-worth. I have tried to speak with a psychiatrist, but he just told me that my problems were so common, they were 'boring', (his own word). I also have called the Samaritans, but the lady on the other end was in bits, crying and more upset than I was! Suffice it to say that I am not sure where to turn next, not believing I really deserve any help, being in two minds about it. At least I now know that I am not alone.
I am so sorry to hear about your experience. Most people can't fathom what it's really like to live with a narcissist parent who genuinely has no concern for their own child and is abusive and manipulative to boot. Even today, children continue to fall into the hands of these abusers, who are adept at convincing judges and lawyers that they are the victims and that their ex spouse and children are making up stories. The narcissist wil do and say things that are so irrational and unbelievably cruel, no one believes it and thinks their accusers are the ones lying.
I hope you can tell your story to one of the groups helping protective parents. It's not a gender issue, it's a mental health issues. If child victims of narcisstic parents come forward, maybe we can change things for other children. Children can't testify, but as an adult, you can as to your experiences to educate the courts as to your experience as the result of their bad decisions on your behalf.
How do we recover from this type of parenting? My brother was dragged into the abuse of me as a child by mirroring our father's NPD but his was learned behavior not his character and he is in therapy now. He has so much guilt from mistreating me and even after years of therapy I still suffer from lack of self esteem. I would be so grateful to find what I need to feel more whole and discard all that isn't useful for me.
Hi Linda,
The resource listing that can be found at the end of each of my blog posts will give you a good starting point for finding appropriate resources. I hope this helps a little.
I read the list and immediately started crying. Everything is spot on 100%. My father was and still is a narcissist. I am going through all of these effects now at the age of 35. Only recently discovered this topic. Never heard of it before, but have been researching it and trying to help myself and try to heal. Any advice on healing would be helpful. Thank you.
Abby, I looked thru and read many of these articles and found them helpful. Scroll down below our comments to find them listed as 'more posts.'
My best advice for healing- remove yourself from exposure as you would with someone who has the flu.
Love yourself, find out how, in as many ways you can.
Forgive yourself for not knowing it is/was a broken relationship.
Take care!
Abby, I'm so sorry that you experienced narcissistic abuse by your father when you were a child. None of us deserve to grow up like that!
As someone who was in therapy for years and years, with several different therapists and psychiatrists, my advice would be to find a therapist who specializes in helping clients who have been abused by narcissists. Only a therapist who really understands what narcissism is, and how damaging the narcissist is to anyone and everyone they are in a relationship with, would truly know how to help. I myself never even knew what narcissism was, apart from society's general idea that it is just a person who "thinks too highly of themselves". That's not the true clinical definition of what this personality disorder really is. I was in therapy on and off for years, and no Dr. or therapist ever even mentioned that my symptoms sounded like they could have been caused by being raised by a narcissist. And these were "professionals"! So please, don't waste years of your life in therapy with someone who truly doesn't understand. Find someone who knows and understands the damage caused, and your treatment will be much more effective.
Also, a really good resource is someone on YouTube named Meredith Miller. Her channel is called "Inner Integration", and she is fabulous! Actually, I accidentally came across her videos 2 years ago, and she was how I first found out about narcissism! After I found out, everything started to really come together for me, and my self-healing journey has really taken off since then. I understand so much more what really happened to me, and the truth about who my mother is. It is nice to be able to connect with others in the comments section who have also experienced narcissistic abuse, and who are on their own healing journeys. We may feel alone, but once we start connecting to others who had similar experiences, we realize that there's a whole group of us out there!
I wish you well on your path, and take good care of yourself :)
I have over analyzed, seeking closure. Maybe if I understood the process of how my family came to be maybe, just maybe it would allow me to move on. However it doesn’t.
I’m starting to really believe that although it may sound cliche and redundant we have to shut that voice in our mind out. Live in the present. Like at work if I focus on the past I wouldn’t be able to treat my next patient. I separate it. I know it will take time. There’s pain there and unanswered questions. Most likely they won’t answer my questions bc they can’t face the truth. What they’ve done and how they hurt someone. I only want to hear them tell me what I want. It’s pointless they won’t. All I know who I am and I know what I am capable of. Maybe one day I will believe in myself, believe that I deserve to love myself. And get the hell away from them they are like cancer. And they will eat your vivacious nature.
My mom passed away 15 years ago now but I often wonder if she was a mild narcissist. She was what my dad would call a "Street angel. Home devil." In public, she was so sweet but at home, look out! She was very mercurial. It was a "come here. go away" type relationship I had with her. She would literally tell me to come tell her stories about my fun adventures with my friends. Then when I'd talk too much, she'd tell me to shut up and let her alone. She used to call me fat and would insult me body shape and stretch marks. She would say that she pitied the person who I got married to. Blah blah blah. But then she could also be so nice and sweet and caring. It was a mind fuck!
My brother is worse than her. He's 14 years older than me and just started to really change recently for the worse. He has insulted me all my life but he always made time for me. Now it's like I don't exist. It's painful, but I actually think it's better that way so I don't keep getting hurt by his constant barrage of insults towards me!
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