Jesse Marczyk Ph.D.

“Nice Guys”, The Friend Zone, And Social Semantics

The Subtle Implications of Language

Posted Feb 21, 2013

A little over a year ago, a video entitled, “Why men and women can’t be friends” was uploaded to YouTube. In the video, a man approaches various men and women and presents them with the question, “can men and women just be friends?”. While many of the woman answered in the affirmative, most of the men seemed to answer in the negative, suggesting that men would generally be interested in something more; something sexual. When asked about whether their male friends were interested in having sex them, many of the women seemed to similarly acknowledge that, yes, their male friends probably were interested, so maybe there was more lurking behind that “just friendship”. In a follow-up video, the same man asked whether it would be alright for people in relationships to hang out alone with same-sex friends. While the men seemed to be of relatively one mind (no, it would not be appropriate), women, again, initially stated that opposite-sex friends are fine. However, when confronted with the possibility of their significant other hanging out alone with a member of opposite-sex, the tune seemed to change dramatically: now men and women agreed that they would, indeed, be bothered by that state of events.

“And here I thought his sudden interest in jogging was purely platonic”

So why the discrepancy in women’s responses, but not men’s? Perhaps it’s simply due to the magic of video editing, where only certain responses were kept to make a point, but, working under the assumption that’s not happening, I think there’s something interesting going on here. Understanding what that something is will require us to dig deeper into two concepts that have been floating around for some time: “the friend zone” and “Nice guys”. The friend zone, as many of you know, refers to the context where someone wants a relationship with another, but that other doesn’t return the affection. Since the interest isn’t mutual, the party interested in the relationship settles for a friendship with the target of their affections, often with the hope that someday things will change. “Nice guys” on the other hand, are typically men who are stuck in the friend zone and, upon the eventual realization that their friendship will probably not transition into a relationship, become irritated with the person they were interested in, resulting in the friendship being called off and feelings being hurt. The friendship, after all, is not what they were after; they wanted the full relationship (or at least an occasional hook up).

“Nice guys”, in other words, are only being nice because they want to get sex, so they’re not really nice, people seem to feel; hence the quotation marks. Further, “nice guys” are frequently socially maligned, seemingly because of their (actually held or assumed to be held) attitude that women are obligated to have sex or start a relationship with them because they are nice (whether any substantial number of them consciously think this is another matter entirely). Alternatively, “nice guys” are looked down on because they view the friendship – or the friend zone – as, at best, a consolation prize to what they were actually going after or, at worst, something they couldn’t care less about having. The nerve of these people; insisting that just a friendship isn’t enough! There are some very peculiar things about the label of “nice guy”, though; things that don’t quite fit at first glance. The first of these is that the earning of the “nice guy” label appears to be contingent on the target of the affections not returning them. If whomever the “nice guy” is interested in does return the affections, there is no way to tell whether he was “nice guy” or one of those actually nice guys. In other words, you could have two identical guys enacting identical sets of behavior right up to the moment of truth: if the target returns the man’s affections, he’s a nice guy; if she doesn’t and the man doesn’t find that state of affairs satisfactory, he is now a “nice guy”; not a nice guy.

That, however, is only a surface issue. The much more substantial issue is in the label itself, which would, given its namesake, seem to imply that the problem is the nice behavior of the guys, rather than the attitude of entitlement that the label is ostensibly aimed at. This is very curious. If the entitled attitude is what is supposed to be the problem of the people this term is aimed at, why would the label focus on their otherwise nice behavior; behavior that might not differ in any substantial way from the behavior of genuine nice guys? Further, why is the label male-specific (it’s “nice guys” not “nice people”, and even when it’s a woman doing it, well, she’s just being a “nice guy” too)? With these two questions in mind, we’re now prepared to begin to tackle the initial question: why do women’s response to the friendship questions, but not men’s, seem discrepant?

“Thanks for taking me shopping; I’m so lucky to have a friend like you…”

Let’s take the questions in a partially-reversed order: the first is why the term focuses on the nice behavior. The answer here is would seem to revolve around the matter of cooperation and reciprocity more generally. In the social world, when an altruistic individual provides you with a benefit at a cost to themselves, the altruist generally expects repayment at some point down the line. It’s what’s called reciprocal altruism – or, less formally, cooperation – and forms the backbone of pretty much every successful social relationship among non-kin (Trivers, 1971). However, sometimes relationships are not quite as reciprocal in nature: one individual will continuously reap the benefits of altruism without returning them in kind. Names for those types of individuals abound, though the most common are probably exploiters or cheaters. Having a reputation as a cheater is, generally speaking, bad for business when it comes to making and maintaining friendships, so it’s helpful to maintain a good reputation amongst others.

The implications for why the “nice guy” label focuses on otherwise nice behavior should be immediately apparent: if someone is behaving nicely towards you – even if that nice behavior might be unwanted – it creates the expectation of reciprocity, both among the altruist and potentially other third parties. Failing to return the favor, then, can make one look like a social cheater. This obviously puts the recipient in a bind: while they would certainly like to enjoy the benefits of the nice individual’s behavior (free meals, social support, and so on), they don’t want to have the obligation to repay it if it’s avoidable (it’s that expectation that makes people uncomfortable about accepting gifts; not because they don’t want said gifts). So how can that obligation be effectively avoided? One way seems to be to question the altruist’s motives: if the altruist was only giving to get something else (like sex), and if that something else is viewed to be of substantially more valuable than what was initially given (also like sex tends to be), one can frame the ostensible altruist as the exploiter, the cheater, or, in this case, the “nice guy”. If a woman wants to either (a) reap the benefits of nice guys, (b) avoid the costs in not reciprocating what the nice guy wants, or (c) both, then the label of “nice guy” can be quite effective. Since there behavior wasn’t actually nice, there’s no need to reciprocate it.

Bear in mind, none of this needs to be consciously entertained. In fact, in some cases it’s better to not have conscious awareness of such things. For instance, to make that reframing (nice to “nice”) more successful, the person doing the reframing has to come off as having innocent motives themselves: if the woman in question was explicit about her desire to take advantage of men’s niceness towards her with no intentions of any repayment, she’s back to being the cheater in the situation (just as the “nice guy’s” behavior is back to just being plain old nice, if a bit naive). Understanding this point helps us answer the third question: why are women’s responses to the friendship question seemingly discrepant? Conscious awareness of these kinds of mental calculations will typically do a woman no favors, as they might “leak out” into the world, so to speak. To think of it in another way, you’ll have an easier time trying to convince people that you didn’t do something wrong if you legitimately can’t access any memories of you doing something wrong (as opposed to having access to those memories and needing to suppress them). To relate this to the answers in the videos, when a woman is receiving benefits from her male friends, keeping the knowledge that her male friends are trying to get something more from her out of mind can help her defend against the criticism of being a social cheater, as well as avoid the need to pay her male friends back. On the other hand, when it’s her boyfriend who’s now being “nice” to other women, there are benefits to her being rather aware of the underlying motives.

“I swear I was just giving her my opinion about her new bra as a friend!”

Finally, we turn to the answer to second question, the answer to which ought to be obvious by now: why is the “nice guy” term male-specific? This answer has a lot to do with the simple fact that, all else being equal, women do prefer men who invest in them, both in the short and long term, but investment plays a substantially lessened role for women in drawing and maintaining male interest (Buss, 2003). Put simply, males invest because females tend to find that investment attractive. So, to sum up, women want to receive investment and males are generally willing to provide that investment. However, male investment typically comes contingent on the possibility or reality of mating, and when that possibility is withdrawn, so too does male investment wane. The term “nice guy” might serve to both avoid the costs that come with receiving that investment but not returning it, as well as a potential shaming tactic for men who withdraw their niceness when it becomes clear that niceness will not pay off as intended. Similarly, a woman might doubt her partner’s “niceness” when it’s directed towards another. This analysis, however, only examines the female-end of things; males face a related set of problems, just from a different angle. Further, the underlying male strategy is, I assure you, not any less strategic.

Reference: Buss, D. (2003). The evolution of desire: Strategies of human mating.Basic Books: New York

Trivers, R. (1971). The Evolution of Reciprocal Altruism The Quarterly Review of Biology, 46 (1) DOI: 10.1086/406755

49 Comments

A few thoughts more...

Submitted by LR on February 21, 2013 - 8:32pm

From my own experiences with "nice guys" out in the wild, I feel like you're missing a couple of points:

1) "Nice guys" aren't the guys who are nice to you until they realize you're not interested and then take their attentions elsewhere. "Nice guys" are the ones who stick around, trying to change your mind, swooping in on any opportunity to tell you how much better they would treat you than your boyfriend does, or assuming that you just don't SEE how valuable a partner they would be - when in reality, you're just not interested.

2) Perhaps some women capitalize on the "nice guys" doing nice things for them - but these are also the same guys who refuse to take a no for an answer. For example, I had an old coworker who developed a crush on me when we first started working together. I didn't lead him on, I was only nice to him. In fact, he seemed to develop a crush on every new female employee who came into the company. For a period of months, he would trip over himself trying to look appealing, doing things like insisting on paying if we walked (in a group) to a coffee shop across the street, or bringing in little trinkets and leaving them on my desk. He did not take the hint that I wasn't interested, nor did he take no for an answer when "offering" to buy me coffee. It took MONTHS of me being flat-out mean to him to get him to back off.

3) Most women do not appreciate having attention paid to them by a man who pays the same amount of attention to EVERY available female. What makes attention valuable is the specialness of it - and that's how you know that someone likes you back, when they treat you differently than everyone else with extra smiles, longer eye contact, teasing, excuses to sit near you, etc. The "nice guys" I've met don't seem to understand this - they expect women to know think are specially interested in only them when they're actually showing the same amount of kindness and/or generosity with any woman that will let them.

I think there is more nuance here than you're representing.

Good additions

Submitted by Jesse Marczyk Ph.D. on February 21, 2013 - 9:19pm

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

Concerning (1), I think you add a very important point: men can be just as willing to use the label as women are, so long as it makes the man using the word seem like the real nice guy, relative to all those fakes out there, of course. While they might tell you your boyfriend is only a "nice guy", they assure you that they are the real deal. You'll notice in many discussions of "nice guys" that if you read over the comments sections, there are many guys who claim to be "former nice guys" or talk about how much of a problem "nice guys" are for women. I get the sense that those commenters are likely no better than the men they malign, but want other people to think they are for all the obvious reasons.

Concerning (2), you seem to be getting at the point that I couldn't for space concerns, but hinted at towards the end: many men are "aware" - consciously or not - that being nice can create that obligation, or, in some cases, actually change their target's mind. While it's not a strategy that works 100% of the time, clearly, but if it ends up working just a few times, it might be a preferable strategy, relative to not trying at all. It makes many of the people involved feel uncomfortable, no doubt, but these systems aren't designed for making others comfortable.

Finally, concerning (3), men face a bit of a dilemma there: if they invest all their time in a particular woman, they might end up making that woman more likely to ultimately become interested in them. On the other hand, putting all their eggs in one basket is a risky move, especially given the high rates of failure of niceness in achieving the intended goal. As always, such matters get complicated very quickly

You might enjoy this.

Submitted by LR on February 22, 2013 - 11:59am

Relevant cartoon about Nice Guys (tm): http://feminainvicta.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/niceguyssee-andactually.png?w=584

No end to the comics on the subject

Submitted by Jesse Marczyk Ph.D. on February 22, 2013 - 2:10pm

One of the links in the post (http://www.buzzfeed.com/hnigatu/13-reasons-why-nice-guys-are-the-worst) contains that, as well as many others on the subject. The underlying theme of these all seem to be that the niceness is just a front for acutally being a selfish, insensitive, mean, or otherwise unpleasant person.

completely misleading article

Submitted by Anonymous on February 21, 2013 - 9:44pm

Sorry to say this. Atleast fix the error by using bad guy instead of nice guy ! Reply to the above the comment is completely mundane.
Dude please don't write articles if you can't. Apologies ! Take it easy...

I don't deal with those nice guys...

Submitted by Anonymous on February 21, 2013 - 10:38pm

I've never been able to deal with those nice guys... I'm blunt to them, and make it clear in the most brutal way that I was not interested. I still had a lot of male friends (the ones who had girlfriends) and I was friends with their girlfriends too.

If you ask me this is a bit of a conundrum that might have cultural tones. It makes me think of young people in other countries, who go out in groups and not in couples. There's no pretension because motivation can be evaluated out in the open.

From my perspective, I found it more honest for a guy to tell me that he's interested in me. It's a risk that the so-called nice guys don't want to take, and I'm not going to reward that behavior. To me "niceness" is something that's got to do with character, and being honest is part of it.

Is it cross-cultural?

Submitted by Jesse Marczyk Ph.D. on February 21, 2013 - 10:47pm

There was another commenter on this piece on Facebook who mentioned that he didn't know about this kind of phenomenon in other cultures. Admittedly, I'm not an expert on the language used in other cultures, much less their subtly in using it, so I can't comment any further about whether or not this is an issue elsewhere.

The reality is...

Submitted by Anonymous on February 22, 2013 - 6:25am

... women use "nice guys" and "lets just be friends" to exploit the sexual interest in her to give the 'nice guy friend' the illusion of a chance with her. Many women lead more naive men on purposely because they can get all sorts of favors out of them.

Nice guys aren't 'bad people' they just don't understand social dynamics, they are just operating from a childlike perspective.

Think about it: Men are raised by females to put women on pedestals, the problem is then these men grow up and treat other women like they treated their mothers expecting that this is attractive to women.

The real issue is men telegraph they are NOT socially clued in and are still behaving how he was taught by his parents.

So little boys turn into these 'not so nice' guys but it's not fault of their own really. Mothers tend to feminize men and men are picked on and looked at as "monsters", "pedophiles", "deviants". i.e. healthy male sex drive is mocked and looked down upon.

Women create a distorted reality in an unconscious attempt to control the sexual market place and relationships by males they find unattractive.

"nice guys" are really just unnattractive guys, girls would easily have friends with benefits with ANY guy she really found attractive so a man CAN be friends with a woman AND be getting laid. So "nice guys" are really just unnattractive guys and women just won't tell them that to their face. It would save men everywhere plenty of hardship from men still operating as they were taught by their moms.

They have to learn how to attract and what attracts women instead of just trying to be nice, how boys are raised is the real issue.

You should read this post:

http://whoism3.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/confessions-of-a-reformed-incel/

Women exploit men who are stuck in an old model of how to treat women based how their mothers raised them.

So it's no fault of their own often times.

To the extent

Submitted by Jesse Marczyk Ph.D. on February 22, 2013 - 11:55am

To the extent that this pattern of behavior is due to social inexperience, I can't conclusively say. Neither can I say as to what extent women consciously try and take advantage of these guys.

Concerning the former, I don't think it's that "being nice" doesn't work (women report that they value this trait in a long-term partner everywhere, as do men), but being nice and nice alone isn't typically enough. There's simply more that goes into starting relationships, and will likely depend on the relative mate value of both the man and woman in question on a number of variables. The dynamic gets complicated very quickly, as do many things in life.

Concerning the latter, though I have no good numbers, I would suspect the number of women who consciously do it in some cases in probably fairly low, at least relative to the number of cases where it's done without any conscious intention. I say that strictly because I don't imagine many scenarios where being aware of it would do the woman in question many favors, but I'm open to arguments on it.

Your post tells me you're pretty inexperienced with women

Submitted by Anonymous on February 22, 2013 - 4:30pm

The reality is that guys, have to learn how to attract and what attracts women instead of just trying to be nice, how boys are raised is the real issue.

The whole problem is with the phrase "being nice" is so vague as to mean nothing, consider someone with social anxiety and social inexperience 'being nice' and someone without those negative attributes 'being nice'. People communicate their positive/negative traits via body language that the unconscious mind picks up on and this either turns on or shuts down attraction.

You can have two different people, both equally nice but one will be seen as attractive and the other not because of subtle traits that are sub-communicated via bodylanguage.

Many men have all sorts of unattractive traits they are unaware of that keeps women rejecting them and they need to figure out what these are.

Vagueness is, to some extent, the point

Submitted by Jesse Marczyk Ph.D. on February 22, 2013 - 6:01pm

The fact that "niceness" is a difficult to assess - yet very important - characteristic of deciding who would make a good partner is, to some extent, why it's focused on so heavily. Since the perception of it can be manipulated, it requires active advertisement, inflation, and defense when you're trying to display it yourself, as well as derogation of others who are trying to display.

Matricide is where it's at.

Submitted by Martian Bachelor on February 22, 2013 - 12:23pm

Your right, Jesse sounds like he's at a meeting of Psychobabblers Anonymous.

I still can't figure out from all the ongoing discussion whether the outpouring ernest concern of late over nice-guys is because they're an endangered species whose habitat needs to be preserved, or if it's because there's an epidemic of 'em which needs to be stamped out.

This social construct (meme) has become that ethereal, that much of a projection.

There's no way around the fact that the central issue really is permission - the sanction to act or to do something granted by someone in a position of authority. Or the lack thereof. Instead, it's the old saw about what isn't prohibited (a long list indeed) is compulsory.

I'm not totally buying into this, but the author does make several good points

Submitted by Anonymous on February 22, 2013 - 8:53am

I've had many male friends over the years. I willingly admit that in my younger days some of my male friends were men who wanted to have committed relationships with me but I made it very very clear I was not interested and would never be interested.

After 30 years a few of these men are still my friends, and good friends at that. I've seen them through marriages, illnesses and life-changes, as any good friend would. Other than the initial "I am not interested you in that way" conversation the subject of dating never has come up with these men. My relationship with these men has been positive for both me and them. We've been able to give each other friendship and assistance in a number of matters.

Not every guy who realizes he will never have sex with a female platonic friend gets huffy and stomps off because he finally accepts the fact he isn't going to have coitus. Most men(and women) are better than this.

Consciously knowing

Submitted by Jesse Marczyk Ph.D. on February 22, 2013 - 11:44am

You're correct in that this dynamic is by no means a pattern of results that obtains all of the time; sometimes it might not even obtain most of the time. However, just because a man might have been told "there's no chance of sex" and even if the man himself says "I know there's no chance of sex", it doesn't mean that each part of his brain is acting as if that conclusion was true. In the same way, though a man can consciously tell you that he understands pornography isn't "real" and he can't have sex with the actors or actresses he's watching, another part of his brain would seem to disagree with that conclusion, as his body will become sexually aroused by the pornography. These systems of investment, in many cases, operate below conscious awareness.

If there's one definition

Submitted by Gil on February 22, 2013 - 11:18am

If there's one definition that could define an Alpha Male I propose it's: he's the one who doesn't do much while women pander to him. He ignores them and they want him more. He can get recreational sex from them without any real effort on his part. By the same token, you know you're extremely employable when employers track you down and make you job offers even if you're already employed as opposed to usual folks who go from business to business with their résumés.

On the other hand, a "nice guy" quite clearly shows his weakness - he has nothing to offer but his sycophantic presence. As one Anonymous pointed out "nice guys" are really dorks - men who are plain sexually unattractive to women. Ideally women should tell him off but apparently a lot of women think it's funny to watch him do anything she asks of him because he thinks it gets him closer to her even though it's obvious to everyone else he won't.

The alpha/nice distinction

Submitted by Jesse Marczyk Ph.D. on February 22, 2013 - 12:07pm

I've seen that distinction crop up fairly frequently and I think it gets the issue confused in more than one way. The first is that it tends to gloss men with some more or less universal pattern of behavior. Men's niceness tends to vary contingent on who they're interacting with and you'll find that many of the so-call jerks or alphas are, in fact, pretty nice in many or most of the cases they're interacting with women they're interested in. The second way that I think the distinction gets it wrong is that even in the event that women are attracted to people are legitmately jerks towards them, women are generally attracted in spite of that behavior, not because of it. It's just that some men can make up for a lack of kindness by being attractive in other ways.

When it comes to question of

Submitted by Gil on February 22, 2013 - 9:20pm

When it comes to question of whether women are attracted Alphas because they're bad boys or bad boys because they're Alpha - I'd go for the fact women are hanging around even genuine bad boys because they're Alpha (handsome and manly). In other words, there's plenty of Alphas who aren't outright bad/abusive and women are attracted to them as well just as there are deadbeat loser criminals who don't get many women.

However I stand by my view that the "nice guy" is someone who has nothing to offer a woman so he panders to her every whim hoping it leads somewhere. After all, nice originally meant "awkward, clumsy" hence nice guys defines himself by what he won't do, e.g. "I won't talk bad about you", "I won't hit you", "I won't demean you", "I won't miss any of your texts and messages", etc. But that makes as much sense as someone going for a professional job that they're not qualified in any real way and telling the interviewer he "edge" is that he will turn up on time, not take fake sick days, not steal work supplies, not speak unpleasantly to other co-workers, etc.

This pretty well nails it

Submitted by Fly on the wall on February 23, 2013 - 10:42am

Certainly from my experience, Gil's comment is succinct and accurate.

Also note, the behavior of nice guys and "nice guys" is often *not* quite the same. When my bro was a nice guy, he'd actually mow a woman's lawn for her. A "nice guy" just kind of hangs around, begging for crumbs from the table. Guys like my bro do eventually end up married to someone who appreciates them, but I don't know what happens to "nice guys".

I give you credit for trying

Submitted by Anonymous on February 22, 2013 - 10:59pm

I give you credit for trying to give an intellectual response to a PUA. It didn't take, but, good effort anyway.

I'll think I'll take that as

Submitted by Gil on February 23, 2013 - 1:14am

I'll think I'll take that as a compliment since I'm not one. :|

A brief lecture from a formerly sing "Nice Guy"

Submitted by Astorian on February 22, 2013 - 11:40am

Speaking as a married male who USED to hear "I love you but I'm not in love with you" or "You'll make SOME woman very happy some day" far more often than I'd like to admit...

A couple of points need to be made:

1) I suppose I WAS a stereotypical "nice guy," but my problem certainly wasn't that I was too nice. I guarantee thta NO woman ever said, "I'd marry Astorian in a heartbeat, if only he were more of an abusive creep!" No woman ever said, "Astorian is PERFECT for me- if only he weren't so nice!" More likely, a number of women thought, "Astorian is a really nice guy, BUT he's just a little too ___ for me." That blank could be filled with several words; neurotic or flabby, among them.

And MOST nice guys, if they're honest, probably have to admit the same thing. Women aren't rejecting because they're nice- there's almost certainly another reason that women are rejecting them, and the guys probably KNOW exactly what the reason is. And THAT'S what they have to work on.

2) Hanging around with a woman who doesn't love you in hopes that she'll change her mind is like sitting in the front row at Yankee Stadium every night, hoping the manager will notice you and put YOU in the game! It's NEVER going to happen, and deep down, you KNOW that!

Once you accept that, you have a choice. If you still enjoy watching baseball, go to the games! Have fun! But if you spend all your time at the ballpark grumbling about what a sphincter Alex Rodriguez is, and how unfair it is that the Yankees let a jerk like him play 3rd base for them instead of a swell guy like you... well, you should probably stop going to the games. You're just making yourself miserable.

Similarly, once you accept that the girl of your dreams doesn't love you back, you have a choice: if you really have fun when you're with her, keep seeing her. But if you spend every minute with her thinking how unfair it is that she's dating other guys who aren't as nice as you, STOP seeing her. Cut her out of your life completely. Don't make yourself miserable.

3) To re-use that baseball analogy... the Yankees don't care whether Alex Rodriguez and I are nice guys. They want and need certain things in a 3rd baseman, and the things they need have NOTHING to do with being nice. The Yankees need a guy who can hit 95 mph fastballs, make big throws, and run the bases quickly. I can't do that, and Alex Rodriguez can (well, not lately!). Hence, it would be STUPID for me to wonder why a jerk like A-Rod gets the job I always dreamed of.

It's the same with women. Some of them want and need things I don't have. It's as simple as that. If they need a guy who's (pick one: richer, more macho, better looking, funnier, whatever) than I am, there's no point resenting them for it.

4) Women bring a lot of grief on themselves by not admitting what they're really after in a man. Too many women will SAY "All I want is a nice man who'll treat me well. Is that so much to ask?" But in reality, that's NOT all women want! They want a nice man who ALSO has a host of other qualities. A woman who says "I just want a nice man" is, essentially, saying "I just want a man with a pulse"- that obviosuly isn't true, and worse yet, it gives false hope to men who DON'T meet her standards.

There's nothing wrong with a woman havig high standards- but she should be honest with herself and with suitors as to what her standards are. When she SAYS she just wants a nice man, she's lying to herself and torturing the introverted males around her, who take her at her word.

Thanks for your comment

Submitted by Jesse Marczyk Ph.D. on February 22, 2013 - 1:58pm

Your main point is an important one that many people miss: while women might like niceness or kindness in their partners, it doesn't mean that this is the only thing they're looking for. One's mate value is made up of a number of different factors, and the importance of those factors is going to be contingent both on the specific woman you're talking to and her specific place in life.

One of the largest complicating issues, however, is that men and women often don't have conscious access to the precise factors which go into their decision and, further, the cognitive mechanisms for mate choice aren't always going to be in agreement. As such, it's not exactly possible for men to "really" know they have no chance or for women to "really" layout what they're looking for, especially if the answers to those two questions can change over time.

The TMZ bullpen

Submitted by Anonymous on February 22, 2013 - 2:19pm

If one watches TMZ we see an interesting dynamic. It is perceived that Max is most admired and desired by women. Max does admit he gets lots of attention from the ladies and talks openly about his many girfriends, past and present. One might think Max is an alpha males, or just lucky. But that isn't what is going on.

Admittedly, Max has been blessed with good looks. But Max increases his chances with the ladies by sitting with the ladies. He's playful and rarely insults or criticizes the women.

The other males in the room might perceive themselves as "nice guys". But they tend to stand away from the women, fraternizing with other men. When they do interact with women the comments can be demeaning or insulting.

Max has increased the likelihood that he will attract women by maintaining an attractive physique, smiling and having positive female interactions. Comparing this to the baseball analogy above, one can see that a man that keeps to the periphery and doesn't involve himself in the game most likely won't get a chance to play the game.

On another note, I'm always amazed by the sulking "nice guys". Not only do they want the women, but they want the prettiest sweetest women. Yet, many of them are overweight, have bad teeth, haven't bought any clothes in years, experience chronic unemployment, live with their mother and don't know how to cook or do laundry. All these items are easy to fix yet the "nice guys" make no effort. They certainly don't want to date the fat girl.

your post is a distraction from the real point

Submitted by Anonymous on March 4, 2013 - 8:13pm

I'm always amazed by the sulking "nice guys". Not only do they want the women, but they want the prettiest sweetest women. Yet, many of them are overweight, have bad teeth, haven't bought any clothes in years, experience chronic unemployment, live with their mother and don't know how to cook or do laundry. All these items are easy to fix yet the "nice guys" make no effort. They certainly don't want to date the fat girl.

Nice try but I personally knew a lot of gainfully employed, competent guys who could take care of their own food and laundry and bills just fine -- yet got rejected in favor of jerks. Oh, and they worked out regularly and were handsome and with good teeth too.

By pretending that rejected nice guys are being rejected for basic unattractiveness, you are failing to grasp the true problem. Plenty of guys report, and I have personally witnessed, that when a former niceguy goes bad, women suddenly start falling all over him. They were rejected BECAUSE they were nice. They were rejected IN SPITE OF being tall (in some cases), handsome, in good shape, with good incomes, etc.

This preference for jerks, even when the nice guys are equally or more attractive on other grounds as well, is a scandalous feature (or, bug) of the femmale psyche.

Good reply to a good article.

Submitted by Fly on the wall on February 22, 2013 - 3:08pm

I've tried to point out from time to time that when a woman says, "you're really nice BUT...", she's rejecting you for what comes AFTER but, not before it. Some people really don't want to hear that.

I'm female, and perfectly happy to have male friends; most of my friends over the years have been male, and it does result in some awkwardness from time to time. I've seen the type of woman who is playing the men along, and also the ones that really do just enjoy the companionship. Those of us who enjoy the companionship consider it to be reciprocal, and thus not something that needs to be purchased with sex. Then again, we usually pay for every other outing, too, or try to.

I've also seen as the other poster above notes...the creepy coworker who comes on to every woman he works with, won't take no for an answer, insists that he's "being nice and women don't like nice guys", and eventually gets fired for sexual harassment. One of them even came on to the HR director when she tried to talk to him about his behavior. These men are self reporting as nice, but are far from it.

I've also had no objection to boyfriends having female friends, especially friends that they knew before they met me. I assume that if anything was going to happen between them, it already would have.

REAL nice guys...

Submitted by Anonymous on March 4, 2013 - 8:03pm

I don't think you were a geniune nice guy. Because you appear to have adopted niceguy behaviors and rhetoric calculatingly, rather than sincerely belieivng them....

a really nice guy, BUT he's just a little too ___ for me."
And MOST nice guys, if they're honest, probably have to admit the same thing. Women aren't rejecting because they're nice- there's almost certainly another reason that women are rejecting them, and the guys probably KNOW exactly what the reason is. And THAT'S what they have to work on

Not me, not the other nice guys I knew. We were hard working, in good shape, not bad looking, spiritually grounded guys who just wanted to settle down and get married and I promise you that NONE of us had ANY idea why we were being endlessly rejected. Neither parents nor friends nor pastors could tell us either, and we DID ask.. many times... "What are we doing wrong?" We HONESTLY DID NOT KNOW why we were being categorically rejected, and it certainly wasn't for failing to make the effort to find out.

My wife of more than 10 years, knows my story quite well. She, too, is absolutely mystified as to why I was rejected all those years. She's glad, because it means SHE got me.. but she really doesn't get it.

Hanging around with a woman who doesn't love you in hopes that she'll change her mind is like sitting in the front row at Yankee Stadium every night, hoping the manager will notice you and put YOU in the game! It's NEVER going to happen, and deep down, you KNOW that!

Actually.. NO.. when I was young and naive I HONESTLY did NOT know that. Since I was the living embodiment of everything the girls SAID they wanted... I was sure, in my heart of hearts, that if I stuck around and proved myself to be a good guy, that sooner or later one of them would "get it". Or maybe set me up with one of their friends. It would be as if the Yankess announced open tryouts, and a herd of nice guys showed up ready to play, only to be cut without even being allowed to play.

You're right, "beta orbiting" a woman never works. But young men trapped in that mode don't know that it doesn't work, til they find out the hard way a few times. Hollywood has lied to them.

When she SAYS she just wants a nice man, she's lying to herself and torturing the introverted males around her, who take her at her word.

True. What she really means, is that she wants a guy that she is already attracted to -- for other reasons (money/ power/ status/ etc) -- to be nice to her.

It does NOT mean that working harder and harder and ever harder at being a nicer, nobler, knight in shining armor, will win them over.

You're better off working at earning a hell of a lot more money, since women will chose that over nice every time. And if you're already nice, in good shape, etc, and you don't lose those things and yet and suddenly your income shoots up... problem solved.

Uh, no

Submitted by Jacquelope on July 22, 2015 - 10:18am

"You're better off working at earning a hell of a lot more money, since women will chose that over nice every time."

Uh, no. A woman who chooses that does not love you, she loves your status. You don't want to be with a woman who only loves you for your socio-economic standing, no way, no how. This is why nice guys should not try to be alpha males: he is not finding love when a woman subsequently gets with him. He's finding a user.

And if you're an introverted male, do you really want to find a way to be with a woman who doesn't like introverted males? Again, she doesn't love you, even if you do get her to date you. And why would you saddle yourself with a woman as unforgiving as that? You're just asking for more, bigger problems down the road: mental abuse being a big and common one. Plus she's just going to drag you through countless extroverts-only situations which will emotionally tax you to death. That relationship will end - explosively.

Nice guys need to spend more time on dating sites where everyone's expectations are out in the open. And stop orbiting - as in, stop obsessing over one woman. If she doesn't want you as a partner, move on. They also need to establish boundaries as to what you'll do for friends vs what you'll do for a significant other: for instance, they would give a pedicure to a woman who's just a friend. That falls squarely under something you only EVER do for your significant other. Buying her expensive stuff is another example.

This isn't to say nice guys are idiots. 99% of self proclaimed "whiny" nice guys don't feel women owe them anything. They don't go around saying "that *bleep* friendzoned me that *bleep bleep* I was so nice to that *bleep* woman" or "hey I didn't rape her so I deserve a gold star". All of this "nice guy=creepy asshole" stereotyping is just fearmongering and a huge excuse for why women don't like non-alpha males.

Jesse, please help me with this one...

Submitted by Anonymous on February 22, 2013 - 2:25pm

I am married but I am friends with a former lover. This individual treats me very well, pays for everything, gifts me, etc. We still have strong affection for each other; we are still married to different spouses. We are each others sounding board and enjoy spending time together.

We had a romantic relationship for 2 years which was pretty good. I wouldn't mind becoming romantic again, and I think he feels the same. But divorcing our spouses just isn't an option. We are very comfortable friends.

What to do?

A bit beyond my scope

Submitted by Jesse Marczyk Ph.D. on February 22, 2013 - 3:24pm

I'm not sure I'd consider myself qualified to make decisions for other people in their personal lives like this. Sorry about that, but I'm afraid I can't tell you what to do here; the situation certainly sounds unpleasant for at least some of the involved parties.

Do you need Dr. Laura to answer that?

Submitted by Not the same Anon on February 22, 2013 - 7:32pm

Anon,
You are married, and are "friends" with a former lover.
You wouldn't mind becoming lovers again.

Do you love your spouse? Or do you love this guy?
Or do you view vows as disposable, such that it doesn't matter whether you love either of them? Do you plan to carry on with both? What about the former lover are you interested in? Why did you break up with him? What about your husband made you marry him? What would cause you to want someone else?

I am no therapist, but somehow I have many friends who put themselves in situations like this. (Either with former lovers, or friends they are simply attracted to in the first place)
As an outsider reading this, can I suggest before you answer, you take this question to your local therapist or clergy or trusted sister/mother/best friend? Talk it through with him/her...
The vow should be the most sacred, so the first answer is: Stop seeing this other person while you figure yourself out. But I don't know you. This might be your 8th marriage, and this former lover may be your 9th...
Many questions to ask yourself, and thankfully (hopefully) you are asking before you make some spontaneous act one late afternoon or when he is happy to pay for your next get together at happy hour...
If you were my friend, I would advise you to cut the ties with this person, so avoid the risk of ruining your marriage over some daydream that didn't work the first time.
Hopefully, I'd be a thoughtful listener before I'd offer that advice to her...

Sorry!

Submitted by Anonymous on February 23, 2013 - 4:00pm

Thought you guys might have some real answers for me. But you don't, didn't mean to waste your time.

I am married 20 years, 1st marriage. The guy has been married longer to his wife. We are both long term relationship veterans who won't leave our spouses.

We are both professional people, with advanced degrees. We don't work in the same field.

We are both considered very nice people.

..women have alot to answer

Submitted by Anonymous on February 22, 2013 - 6:08pm

..women have alot to answer for in this society with the feminist-trash they've been pulling for decades...what goes around comes around ladies...i used to be a nice guy but ive wised up...women today are a sorry lot.Karma is an unforgiving b**tch girls.

Just a matter of time

Submitted by Anonymous on February 22, 2013 - 7:43pm

before a "nice guy" showed up to spew what "nice guys" really think.

You missed the point

Submitted by Anonymous on February 23, 2013 - 12:31am

That post was from a FORMER nice guy who got tired of women not giving him a chance. So now he's toughened up, and I'll betcha he's getting laid more often.

I'll bet he IS getting laid

Submitted by Webz on February 28, 2013 - 12:17pm

I'll bet he IS getting laid more.

Not because he "became" a jerk, but because in his previous efforts to become "nice", he repressed other unrelated attributes, like sexual expression, and just straight-up asking the girl out.

Now that he isn't putting on a facade, his sexual interest wouldn't be hindered by his need to APPEAR "nice". Ergo, he becomes more attractive, but less respected.

Yes... What goes around comes

Submitted by Anonymous on March 1, 2013 - 5:55pm

Yes... What goes around comes around. That is why guys are in such an awful situation because when you reap opression, opression is what you will sow. So if you want answers, here's a good one. No man is forced into any choices. No resources for survival have been monopolized against him. His name hasn't been taken from him as if he were a mere slave. The fruits of his labors weren't forced out of his hands and credit taken away from him.

Women no have a choice to work and make money (as do men)
Women can now have property in their name so that they are able to have a home of their own (as do men)
Women no allowed to keep their name upon marriage (as men always have)
Women no longer have to sacrifice their health and body and risk death to bring a child into the world just for a man to take credit for that child. (I couldn't imagine the WWIII we'd have if more women started taking credit for the work they do to bring a child into the world)

As bad a men think they have it today they should be thankful they've never been in a position were they were slaves to those who've monopolized basic resources for survivial in order to gain control over others. Men have always been allowed to have a job to make money to eat and keep a shelter over their heads. Men have always been allowed to keep that shelter in their name to proect their home. Men have always been allowed to create the rules that society follows and the consequences for not following them. Nothing has been taken away from men except the ease in which they could attain these things.

I would love to know what exactly it is you think those evil feminists need to answer for? For the fact that you actually have to work and sacrifice on terms other than your own?

Call the game for what it really is

Submitted by Anonymous on February 22, 2013 - 7:19pm

The typical "nice guy" scenario is really just the karpman drama triangle in disguise. It isn't even a good disguise. The "rescuer" or "nice guy" is trying to save the girl (Vitcim) from her past and or current boyfriend trend. He is strung along as a "feed system" for her low self esteem. She is not reciprocating which just keeps feeding HIS low self esteem. The boyfriend likely is a fairly normal guy OR abuser who is with a professional victim. They are all really just meeting each others needs. The nice guy just doesn't know it, and when he complains about it that is just him flipping into the victim role.

I used to be the nice guy, then I got fed up and spent some time as the asshole player type. I can honestly say I got a TON of attention being "that guy" however, I eventually realized I was getting attention from girls with a lot of self esteem issues. They also typically had a lot of "friendzoners" hanging around in the woodwork putting the little voice into their ear about what a bad guy I was for them. They stuck with me, would treat that friend zone guy like crap constantly. In the one case that someoned ended up dating that friend zone guy who was there to rescue her when i dumped her, it turns out he didn't actually want that, and wasn't actually a nice guy at all. He NEEDED to be rescuing something... and since she didn't actually need a rescue he lost interest and became the cheater. He didn't really have a choice though since he was dating a professional victim.

All this is is just a dance of those roles. Victim, persecutor, rescuer. Rescuer always becomes victim. Always expressing childhood issues in adult relationships. The faster they see it the faster you can make changes and start taking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Once you take responsibility for your own actions you realize, I'm being nice because I CHOOSE to be nice. If that isn't what the other person wants it isn't your fault, it is their choice. When you are in that space you aren't feeding your low self esteem, you are just making choices. The expectations go away... you stop making yourself the victim. You have a lot more power when you recognize that it is your choice what you want to do.

That future trip is the trap the "maybe someday" expectation. That is suffering. If it isn't the relationship you want NOW, why are you even chasing it? What are you even chasing? It is just a fantasy of what you think it would be like. I promise you her boyfriend isn't the only one difficult to deal with in the relationship. She just isn't telling you about her bullshit. She doesn't even see what it is to tell you about it.

MOVE ON, get with people who don't play that game.

Find some peace.

Call the game for what it really is

Submitted by Anonymous on February 22, 2013 - 7:19pm

MOVE ON, get with people who don't play that game.

Find some peace.

Women want niceness from

Submitted by chris on February 23, 2013 - 3:41am

Women want niceness from guys. But they want those guys to be socio-sexually dominant/confident, and to the extent that that niceness is supplicative, it subtracts from the perception of their socio-sexual dominance/confidence.

Maybe, just maybe.....

Submitted by Webz on February 28, 2013 - 12:09pm

Maybe, just maybe, we need to change the use of the word "nice".

Things are nice, people are nice, people do nice things. But where we're at, niceness seems to be some sort of level, measurement, or competitive comparison.

Niceness might win you admiration, but not necessarily attraction.

Here is an important comparison:

A hot girl could be a complete jerk, but she's still hot. In fact, her hotness actually makes her bad personality more irritating.

And if you find a girl unattractive, she can't just win you over by spamming more niceness in your face. You'll certainly still appreciate her as a friend, though.

But there are many more dimension to attraction. Physical attraction, intellectual attraction, emotional attraction. If someone isn't attracted to you because you aren't intellectually compatible, you can't just fill one up until it "overflows" into the others.

That would be like an athlete who is a terrible sprinter, but thinks they should let him run the 100m, because he can climb really fast.

Niceness in itself

Submitted by Fly on the wall on February 28, 2013 - 12:28pm

isn't enough. It's a lubricant that makes people more comfortable to be around the nice person, but it's a kind of minimum criterion. People are sometimes willing to overlook a lack of niceness for other attributes, but most people won't overlook a lack of attributes just because someone is pleasant and doesn't swear at them.

nice-guys-the-friend-zone-and-social-scene

Submitted by Bill on March 3, 2013 - 11:09am

A genuine nice guy is defined by the core element of his true caring! What is shown here is that most women are just not worth really caring about! If all the true nice guys gave up the element of caring and treated all women like yesterday's garbage, their woman troubles would end! This is the kind of man that women seem to want! If there is no reward for being a caring man, then men should stop caring and focus only on their own needs! This is what foolish women deserve!

This "alpha" male thing...

Submitted by Anonymous on September 5, 2013 - 12:12pm

I think terms like "alpha" male and assertions that such males "get all the girls" are conceived by males who are socially awkward, to the point of neurosis.

The silly old expressions like "nice guys finish last" have been hijacked and exaggerated by our emasculated, hypersensitive society to the point where instead of being jokes, they are now codes to live by.

Women don't like jerks, as the so-called "alpha" types are broadly described. They don't like being treated poorly. It's just that some women are so tired of the dating scene - like men - that they settle for a lot less.

I've met a few "alpha" males in my time. Some were fat, balding and outright unattractive - what separated them from sexually unsuccessful males was their game. They KNEW how to pick up a woman. They knew what types to go after. They had many sexual conquests because they figured out how to work the system and had the confidence in that knowledge.

The comment here about someone's brother mowing a woman's lawn - unless you lived in that house with her, you are being a doormat in that case. She was using you. There are quite a number of MEN AND WOMEN who will use a doormat to whatever end. It's not niceness. It's a servile attitude, which is unattractive in any gender. Often servile people have boring personalities and no sense of humor. I've dated a few of those types. They also suffer from depression, social anxiety or a lack of basic social skills. They are, in a word, neurotic to one degree or another. This is why they can't get their gender of choice.

"Nice" girls often get preyed on. Believe me, I was one such type once. The aggressive guys - mistakenly called "alphas" by the neurotics - go right after these girls, knowing their self esteem is fragile or even nonexistent. They use these girls and then leave them. Same as girls using the so-called "nice" guys.

Not sure about this

Submitted by JCLBRT87 on June 18, 2015 - 10:29am

A few years ago I cut off my friendship with a girl I had a crush on. I knew her for five years, and although I've always thought thought she was attractive I didn't have those type of feelings for her at first. I genuinely use to love hanging out and doing stuff together. However, at a certain point my feelings began to change for her. My problem was that she used to use me as a sounding board for her boyfriend problems and I was always the first guy she'd run to for advice when some other guy broke her heart. At first this wasn't so bad but after a few years I began to think that I could treat her better than most of the other guys she was dating, and most of the things she would say she wants in a guy were the exact traits I considered myself as having. It didn't help that she kept trying to make lifelong plans with me such as building a "dream home" together and constantly telling me how great of a guy I am and how after college she wanted us to get a place together and travel together. After this I guess I believed for awhile that if she really wanted to do these things and if she really thought I was such a great guy then perhaps she would think I was worth the effort at a relationship. After all, the very men she was complaining about she gave them a chance at relationship and they barely did anything except walk into the room at the right time.

I didn't tell her for awhile about my feelings changing for her, but I was always there for her and felt that I was really trying to maintain a friendship. The thing is, I feel that I was genuinely a nice guy, I was nice to her before I even had feelings for her. We had mutual friends whom I was nice to as well. The point I am trying to make is that everyone views me as a nice guy and I am always the person who everyone seeks out for help, because they know they can rely on me.

I didn't decide to cut off my friendship with her because I was pretending to be her friend. I was genuinely her friend and I really did care for her, I eventually told her my feelings had changed for her she told me she wasn't interested in pursuing a romantic relationship with me. I guess I felt a little better that I now knew she wasn't interested instead of constantly wondering. However, even after this she would still constantly complain about other guys to me. I didn't really have the heart to tell her to stop directly, but always hinted that I didn't want to talk to her about them. I mean she would legitimately ask me "why guy are such assholes?" This would be after a day of hanging out where I just took her to get food, ice cream, went to a musical, and have been there for her for nearly 5 years whenever she needed me. I would try to be sarcastic in my response by saying "I'm sorry I'm an asshole" to give her the hint that she is also talking about me when she says those things. She would giggle and say "not you silly". It legitimately hurt me that didn't fit in to her definition of a guy. Somehow I managed to become this girl's girlfriend simply by being there for her. She would tell me over and over that I was so great and that she loves that she can confide in me and it really fed into my delusion that she would eventually realize that I was the exact person she was describing as wanting a relationship with.

This article suggest that "nice guys" who aren't friends after rejection weren't really nice guys to begin with. I don't know that the author knows how excruciatingly painful it is to be around someone you love so much knowing deep down that you have to hide your real feelings for her while giving advice to her on other guys who got to date her, and all the while the only thing you really want to say is "you should date me". It'd be like going to a job interview and having them say "You're perfect for the position, you have all the qualifications we want and would fit perfectly with our company, but we're not going to hire you. Instead we're going to hire this unqualified guy who's probably a drunk, but we'll call you from time to time to complain about the guy we did hire." I can tell you from personal experience that it hurts so much and lowered my self-esteem. I kept wondering to myself what was wrong with me. I found myself comparing myself to the guys she was deciding were worth the effort to date. The only thing that came to mind was simply that I wasn't physically attractive. I'd much rather have railroad spikes driven through my eyes than feeling like every time I was with her that I just wanted to go home, curl up into the fetal position and cry. Some of us "nice guys" are genuinely nice, but if we keep getting rejected by the people we love while at the same time having to be the one to comfort them when the guys who did get a chance hurt them. The only reason I let myself get into this position was because of articles like this suggesting that I wouldn't really be a nice guy if I left. Eventually, if you love someone so much and want something so much that it hurts to be around them then it's torture if you stay and does absolutely nothing to help you. To me it's a catch 22... If you leave the friendship and stop talking to them you're viewed as being fake (i.e. only being nice to get laid, or being nice because you want something in return), but if you stay you're gonna be in constant pain knowing the girl you are crazy about is only a few feet away and all you want to do is hug her or hold her hand but you cant. You have to stand in silence behind her as she holds hands with some other guy who just so casually waltzed into her life and got her, all the while knowing if and/or when it doesn't work out you'll be the first person she comes to to complain about how much guys suck.

I waited for over a year after rejection to cut off our friendship and over that year I just became really depressed and contemplated suicide on a number of occasions. The only reason I waited this long was because of women saying that guys who leave after being rejected were not nice to begin with. Unfortunately, for some of us guys it's the only way to save ourselves from everlasting torture.

The only thing I've learned is to stop being friends with girls you find attractive, because if you fall in love with them and they reject you you'll just be seen as a fake if you decide it's too painful to continue your friendship.

I agree, some of the guys are

Submitted by Same eemran on June 20, 2015 - 1:23pm

I agree, some of the guys are genuinely nice and want to help. They don't make the move on the girl because it might be viewed as creepy. They don't walk away from the friendship because it looks like a betrayal. There is a big element of being in love but there is also a big element of being a friend. They are there for her in bad times.

Add it all together the guy maybe loves everyone else but himself and that's where things fall apart. Best is to take a break for being a nice guy and focus on just being a guy. Play sports, do hobbies, travel, hang with the guys, exercise, read books, and meet other women. Just invest in yourself and see yourself grow.

The world will be a better

Submitted by Anonymous on June 20, 2015 - 1:06pm

The world will be a better place to live if:

1) nice guys stopped being nice
2) women stopped the social cheating

I have been a nice guy....and a puppet of a social cheater. Let me tell you, these things are not one way streets. She was just as invested to make sure I lingered around and gave her my time, validation, attention, affection, emotional support, did a ton of chores etc. She was also someone who had never been able to keep a relationship together, was divorced, never had or never wanted kids. She did not even have a pet or a plant at home to care for. Her relationship with female friends was always poor. I agree nice guys suck, but to manipulate them takes special skills and normal women will typically fend them off. It's the skilled social cheater who will pick them up and screw them over. What exactly would it take for anyone to fend off attention you don't want? Not much. I am a very well put together guy and have had no problem pushing put females who were interested in me but in whom I had no interest in. I never thought of keeping them lingering in the zone as a good friend who will feed my ego and be my emotional tampon. Anyways point is, I don't think a nice guy can sell his goods if there is no market for them. Unfortunately there is a market and there are social cheaters. Coming back to my own case, after I "resigned" from the "nice guy job", she chased me a bit and very soon thereafter was with another nice guy, in fact I thin 2 of them in tandem.

Or you have men who believe

Submitted by Jay on June 30, 2018 - 10:25am

Or you have men who believe they’re nice, when in fact they’re just selfish and won’t actually go out of their way to try and get to know you or show any kindness. They just moan that women don’t like them and expect women to flock over them. I had an experience with someone like this. He was always posting articles about the friend zone and not getting a girlfriend, yet he was probably one of the most rude and selfish men I’ve ever met. A look in the mirror would have been a start! And I’m certainly not saying this is the case for all men. But some act very entitled and take the ‘friend zone’ and ‘nice guy’ thing too far, using it as an excuse for being an ar**hole!

Hypocrisy

Submitted by Resigned Sidekick on August 12, 2018 - 3:41am

Even though I don't agree with everything said in this article and it is five years old, it's still relevant to this day.

I think it's true that too many people use the "Nice Guy" label as an excuse not repay altruistic behavior. And even though I think that people should be altruistic for it's own sake, I do think there is no denying when someone is always giving and not getting anything in return a relationship suffers because of it. Nice Guys usually become doormats because of the stigma that serving your own self-interest is inherently bad thus makes them "not really nice". And the "Nice Guy" label does more to discourage nice people to become more assertive than the other way around.

What bothers me the most about the "nice guy" label is just how hypocritical nd self-contradicting the rhetoric really is. One of the main complaints about the so-called "Nice Guys" is their sense of entitlement to love and/or sex. They'll tell these "Nice Guys" that they should be nice just for sake of being nice and that they can't make someone want them sexually otherwise. But in the very next minute will say how you can make someone like you by doing "X, Y, and Z". In other words, Nice Guys can't make girls like you by being nice but they can make girls like you with money, good looks, and being "charmingly cool". This directly contradicts the mention that they're trying to give "Nice Guys". You think the message is that love and attraction is not conditional but then they'll go on to tell you that love and attraction IS conditional it's just not based on niceness. If Nice Guys are defined by their sense of entitlement then less be honest most people (regardless of sex and gender) have a Nice Guy mentality, which is exactly why I can't take the term "Nice Guy" seriously.

I think the most that I disagree with this article is the idea women alone are social cheaters when in reality being a social cheater isn't gender exclusive anymore than the "Nice Guy" mentality.

Hypocrisy

Submitted by Resigned Sidekick on August 12, 2018 - 3:44am

Even though I don't agree with everything said in this article and it is five years old, it's still relevant to this day.

What bothers me the most about the "nice guy" label is just how hypocritical nd self-contradicting the rhetoric really is. One of the main complaints about the so-called "Nice Guys" is their sense of entitlement to love and/or sex. They'll tell these "Nice Guys" that they should be nice just for sake of being nice and that they can't make someone want them sexually otherwise. But in the very next minute will say how you can make someone like you by doing "X, Y, and Z". In other words, Nice Guys can't make girls like them by being nice but they can make girls like them with money, good looks, and being "charmingly cool". This directly contradicts the mention that they're trying to give "Nice Guys". You think the message is that love and attraction is not conditional but then they'll go on to tell you that love and attraction IS conditional it's just not based on niceness. If Nice Guys are defined by their sense of entitlement then less be honest most people (regardless of sex and gender) have a Nice Guy mentality, which is exactly why I can't take the term "Nice Guy" seriously.

I think the most that I disagree with this article is the idea women alone are social cheaters when in reality being a social cheater isn't gender exclusive anymore than the "Nice Guy" mentality.

Post Comment

About the Author

Online:

Pop Psychology

View Author Profile

Find a Therapist

Professionals

Mental Health

Personality

Personal Growth

Relationships

Family Life

Do I Need Help?

Recently Diagnosed?

Current

Recent

News

Essential Reads

Trending Topics

Find a Therapist

Browse by Country

Members

Get Help