Schema Therapy Psychologists and Therapists in Kirrawee, NSW

Photo of Christopher Edward Beards, Psychologist, PsyBA General
Christopher Edward Beards
Psychologist, PsyBA General
Online Only
I have experience in CBT, ACT, DBT, Narrative Therapy and some footing in Schema Therapy.
I work with adults and adolescents navigating complex presentations; like eating disorders, trauma, personality difficulties, men's mental health, and LGBTQIA+ concerns. I also see NDIS participants and Defence personnel through the ADF. Many clients have tried general support and found it hasn't touched what they're actually dealing with; others can't access quality care where they live. Telehealth bridges that gap across regional and remote Australia. My sessions are collaborative, goal-focused, and evidence-based with an aim to build your capacity to manage your own wellbeing, in a space that is genuinely non-judgemental.
I have experience in CBT, ACT, DBT, Narrative Therapy and some footing in Schema Therapy.
I work with adults and adolescents navigating complex presentations; like eating disorders, trauma, personality difficulties, men's mental health, and LGBTQIA+ concerns. I also see NDIS participants and Defence personnel through the ADF. Many clients have tried general support and found it hasn't touched what they're actually dealing with; others can't access quality care where they live. Telehealth bridges that gap across regional and remote Australia. My sessions are collaborative, goal-focused, and evidence-based with an aim to build your capacity to manage your own wellbeing, in a space that is genuinely non-judgemental.
(02) 7501 1359 View (02) 7501 1359
Photo of Trix Harvey, Counsellor, ACA-L2
Trix Harvey
Counsellor, ACA-L2
Serves Area
Life can get heavy. Maybe you’re carrying something from your past that won’t let you rest, feeling disconnected from the people you love, or just running on empty and not quite sure how you got here. Whatever’s brought you to this moment — you don’t have to face it alone. Trix Harvey is a counsellor who genuinely cares about the people she works with. With 10 years of experience — including specialised work with refugee trauma — she brings both warmth and deep expertise to every session. Her areas of focus include anxiety, trauma recovery, and relationship issues, and she works with each person as a whole: mind, body, and spirit.
Life can get heavy. Maybe you’re carrying something from your past that won’t let you rest, feeling disconnected from the people you love, or just running on empty and not quite sure how you got here. Whatever’s brought you to this moment — you don’t have to face it alone. Trix Harvey is a counsellor who genuinely cares about the people she works with. With 10 years of experience — including specialised work with refugee trauma — she brings both warmth and deep expertise to every session. Her areas of focus include anxiety, trauma recovery, and relationship issues, and she works with each person as a whole: mind, body, and spirit.
(02) 8355 9713 View (02) 8355 9713
Photo of Vanessa Allen, Social Worker, AMHSW
Vanessa Allen
Social Worker, AMHSW
Serves Area
Vanessa is a Mental Health Social Worker, Psychotherapist and Counsellor. ​ Vanessa is known for her empathetic approach and desire to empower clients, so they can make positive changes in line with their values. Her calm and caring nature allows her to build trust even with the most resistant clients. She has worked with people from diverse backgrounds and of all ages. Her calm and caring nature allows her to build trust even with the most resistant clients. Vanessa is also a Credentialed Eating Disorder Clinician and a Certified RO-DBT Practitioner.
Vanessa is a Mental Health Social Worker, Psychotherapist and Counsellor. ​ Vanessa is known for her empathetic approach and desire to empower clients, so they can make positive changes in line with their values. Her calm and caring nature allows her to build trust even with the most resistant clients. She has worked with people from diverse backgrounds and of all ages. Her calm and caring nature allows her to build trust even with the most resistant clients. Vanessa is also a Credentialed Eating Disorder Clinician and a Certified RO-DBT Practitioner.
(02) 8074 5994 View (02) 8074 5994
Photo of Tiana Sparacino, Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA Endorsed
Tiana Sparacino
Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA Endorsed
Serves Area
I draw from ACT, CBT, Schema Therapy, Internal Family Systems (IFS), and psychodynamic therapy.
Do you struggle with anxiety, depression, trauma, or feeling stuck in patterns you can't seem to break? Perhaps relationships feel hard, burnout has crept in, or you're going through a major life change and don't quite recognise yourself anymore. Maybe you've tried therapy before, and it didn't quite click. Reaching out is often the hardest part; everything after that, we figure out together. I work with adults across a wide range of concerns — online and in-person — and am Medicare and SIRA registered, welcoming WorkCover and DVA clients.
I draw from ACT, CBT, Schema Therapy, Internal Family Systems (IFS), and psychodynamic therapy.
Do you struggle with anxiety, depression, trauma, or feeling stuck in patterns you can't seem to break? Perhaps relationships feel hard, burnout has crept in, or you're going through a major life change and don't quite recognise yourself anymore. Maybe you've tried therapy before, and it didn't quite click. Reaching out is often the hardest part; everything after that, we figure out together. I work with adults across a wide range of concerns — online and in-person — and am Medicare and SIRA registered, welcoming WorkCover and DVA clients.
(02) 4214 8076 View (02) 4214 8076
Photo of Carlie Jordan, Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA - Clin. Psych
Carlie Jordan
Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA - Clin. Psych
Serves Area
I draw on evidence-based approaches including Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT), Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), schema therapy and EMDR.
I’m a Clinical Psychologist with 17 years experience, supporting adults and adolescents (15 yrs +) experiencing anxiety, depression, stress, burnout, trauma, relationship difficulties, grief and loss, chronic health concerns, and life transitions. I provide a warm and non-judgemental space where clients feel comfortable exploring their concerns and work towards meaningful change. My approach to therapy is collaborative and practical. I understand that reaching out for support can feel overwhelming, and I aim to create a therapeutic environment where clients feel heard, understood, and supported at their own pace.
I draw on evidence-based approaches including Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT), Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), schema therapy and EMDR.
I’m a Clinical Psychologist with 17 years experience, supporting adults and adolescents (15 yrs +) experiencing anxiety, depression, stress, burnout, trauma, relationship difficulties, grief and loss, chronic health concerns, and life transitions. I provide a warm and non-judgemental space where clients feel comfortable exploring their concerns and work towards meaningful change. My approach to therapy is collaborative and practical. I understand that reaching out for support can feel overwhelming, and I aim to create a therapeutic environment where clients feel heard, understood, and supported at their own pace.
(02) 9538 7561 View (02) 9538 7561
Photo of Miranda Moir, Social Worker, AMHSW
Miranda Moir
Social Worker, AMHSW
Serves Area
Do you feel stuck, overwhelmed, anxious or depressed and want to finally be free of these burdens? With more than 20 yrs experience, I listen deeply to what you want to change and use a skilled approach to alleviate these burdens. My clients describe me as authentic, warm, kind, trustworthy and down to earth. I have a particular interest working with: - neurodivergent women experiencing anxiety or depression - those living with the legacy of their past or abusive relationships - people struggling with low self esteem, perfectionism or people pleasing - those who want to move beyond bandaid strategies and create full healing.
Do you feel stuck, overwhelmed, anxious or depressed and want to finally be free of these burdens? With more than 20 yrs experience, I listen deeply to what you want to change and use a skilled approach to alleviate these burdens. My clients describe me as authentic, warm, kind, trustworthy and down to earth. I have a particular interest working with: - neurodivergent women experiencing anxiety or depression - those living with the legacy of their past or abusive relationships - people struggling with low self esteem, perfectionism or people pleasing - those who want to move beyond bandaid strategies and create full healing.
(02) 7501 1601 View (02) 7501 1601

More Therapists Nearby

Photo of Ashleigh Rowe, Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA - Clin. Psych
Ashleigh Rowe
Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA - Clin. Psych
Wollongong, NSW 2500
I am a Clinical Psychologist providing therapy to adolescents (15+) and adults in Wollongong or online Australia-wide.
I am a Clinical Psychologist providing therapy to adolescents (15+) and adults in Wollongong or online Australia-wide.
(02) 4210 5682 View (02) 4210 5682
Photo of Gurprit Ganda, Psychologist, PhD, MAPS
Gurprit Ganda
Psychologist, PhD, MAPS
Bella Vista, NSW 2153
I lead the team of Psychologists at Potentialz Unlimited. I have a wide and deep background in supporting patients with complex mental health issues through evidence-based therapies such as CBT, DBT, EMDR, PET, TF-CBT, MBCT, Interpersonal Therapy. My warm and empathetic nature and advanced psycho-therapeutic skills promote open discussion and an environment for healing. I am passionate about my client's recovery and in returning value and meaning to the lives of those in my care. I am registered as a Tier-2 Counsellor with Victim Services, NSW and been treating patients suffering from Trauma and PTSD over the last 12 years.
I lead the team of Psychologists at Potentialz Unlimited. I have a wide and deep background in supporting patients with complex mental health issues through evidence-based therapies such as CBT, DBT, EMDR, PET, TF-CBT, MBCT, Interpersonal Therapy. My warm and empathetic nature and advanced psycho-therapeutic skills promote open discussion and an environment for healing. I am passionate about my client's recovery and in returning value and meaning to the lives of those in my care. I am registered as a Tier-2 Counsellor with Victim Services, NSW and been treating patients suffering from Trauma and PTSD over the last 12 years.
(02) 9158 6384 View (02) 9158 6384
Photo of Joelle Fa, Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA - Clin. Psych
Joelle Fa
Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA - Clin. Psych
Winston Hills, NSW 2153
I utilise a range of evidence-based treatments including Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, Schema Therapy and Dialectical Behavioural Therapy, tailored to the individual and their goals.
Getting to hear and know my clients’ stories is an incredible privilege. I see therapy as a partnership, where we work as a team to get you to where you want to be. Offering my clients hope and restoration even in the midst of the most difficult seasons is one of my greatest joys. I have worked in hospital inpatient and community settings, universities and in various private practice settings. When I am not seeing clients, I enjoy training and supervising clinicians in treatment of eating disorders through my role at the InsideOut Institute.
I utilise a range of evidence-based treatments including Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, Schema Therapy and Dialectical Behavioural Therapy, tailored to the individual and their goals.
Getting to hear and know my clients’ stories is an incredible privilege. I see therapy as a partnership, where we work as a team to get you to where you want to be. Offering my clients hope and restoration even in the midst of the most difficult seasons is one of my greatest joys. I have worked in hospital inpatient and community settings, universities and in various private practice settings. When I am not seeing clients, I enjoy training and supervising clinicians in treatment of eating disorders through my role at the InsideOut Institute.
(02) 8609 3761 View (02) 8609 3761
Photo of Sandra Garcia, Psychotherapist, PACFA
Sandra Garcia
Psychotherapist, PACFA
Rockdale, NSW 2216
I am a therapist and coach dedicated to helping people become active participants in their own lives. I work with individuals and couples who are seeking clarity, emotional balance, and a deeper connection with themselves and others. At the heart of my work is a simple belief: we all carry power within us. I chose this path because, during times when I felt disconnected and uncertain of my place, someone helped me reconnect with my own inner strength. Today, I support others on their journey of self-discovery and psychological growth, walking alongside them with care and curiosity.
I am a therapist and coach dedicated to helping people become active participants in their own lives. I work with individuals and couples who are seeking clarity, emotional balance, and a deeper connection with themselves and others. At the heart of my work is a simple belief: we all carry power within us. I chose this path because, during times when I felt disconnected and uncertain of my place, someone helped me reconnect with my own inner strength. Today, I support others on their journey of self-discovery and psychological growth, walking alongside them with care and curiosity.
0492 970 291 View 0492 970 291
Photo of Dr Hannah Glassman, Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA General
Dr Hannah Glassman
Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA General
Brookvale, NSW 2100
I am a compassionate and dedicated Psychologist, Clinical Psychology Registrar, and AHPRA-approved supervisor. I work with adolescents and adults experiencing anxiety, low mood, stress, relationship challenges, grief and loss, self-esteem concerns, or addictions. I also support parents who are navigating difficulties related to child anxiety, emotion dysregulation, and behaviour challenges. In addition, I work with couples to strengthen their connection, deepen their friendship, and build practical skills in communication and conflict management.
I am a compassionate and dedicated Psychologist, Clinical Psychology Registrar, and AHPRA-approved supervisor. I work with adolescents and adults experiencing anxiety, low mood, stress, relationship challenges, grief and loss, self-esteem concerns, or addictions. I also support parents who are navigating difficulties related to child anxiety, emotion dysregulation, and behaviour challenges. In addition, I work with couples to strengthen their connection, deepen their friendship, and build practical skills in communication and conflict management.
(02) 8403 2646 View (02) 8403 2646
Photo of Kylie McIntosh, Psychologist, PsyBA General
Kylie McIntosh
Psychologist, PsyBA General
I use interventions that draw on a brain, mind and body-centred model including trauma/attachment-informed and insight-oriented approaches, psychoeducation, schema therapy, CBT and Mindfulness.
The therapy journey can help us understand and address distress in our lives through understanding how the past has stayed alive in our current experience. It is no longer about what happened, it is how it lives on in parts of ourselves.. "Owning our story can be hard but not nearly as difficult as spending our lives running from it" (Brene Brown). I offer a safe therapeutic environment for you to navigate and resolve the concerns and difficulties you face with gentle curiosity and mindfulness, and will support you in building self-compassion, understanding and connection, strength, self-esteem and a sense of empowerment.
I use interventions that draw on a brain, mind and body-centred model including trauma/attachment-informed and insight-oriented approaches, psychoeducation, schema therapy, CBT and Mindfulness.
The therapy journey can help us understand and address distress in our lives through understanding how the past has stayed alive in our current experience. It is no longer about what happened, it is how it lives on in parts of ourselves.. "Owning our story can be hard but not nearly as difficult as spending our lives running from it" (Brene Brown). I offer a safe therapeutic environment for you to navigate and resolve the concerns and difficulties you face with gentle curiosity and mindfulness, and will support you in building self-compassion, understanding and connection, strength, self-esteem and a sense of empowerment.
(02) 8074 1570 View (02) 8074 1570
Photo of Alena Piccolruaz, Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA General
Alena Piccolruaz
Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA General
Serves Area
I work with children, adolescents, and families with a special interest in supporting people with any type of trauma and am trained in trauma-informed therapies e.g EMDR, Brainspotting and Neurofeedback. I also support mums and dads through pregnancy and post-pregnancy. Issues treated (but not limited to) include; anxiety, stress, depression, neurodiversity, school issues, suicidal thinking, personality disorders, anger management, gender transitioning, self-harm, grief and loss, Workcover, Narcissistic Abuse and Domestic Violence/relationship issues, court/legal reports and parenting skills. I am also a Board Approved Supervisor.
I work with children, adolescents, and families with a special interest in supporting people with any type of trauma and am trained in trauma-informed therapies e.g EMDR, Brainspotting and Neurofeedback. I also support mums and dads through pregnancy and post-pregnancy. Issues treated (but not limited to) include; anxiety, stress, depression, neurodiversity, school issues, suicidal thinking, personality disorders, anger management, gender transitioning, self-harm, grief and loss, Workcover, Narcissistic Abuse and Domestic Violence/relationship issues, court/legal reports and parenting skills. I am also a Board Approved Supervisor.
(02) 9159 6930 View (02) 9159 6930
Photo of Irene Lock-Simmons - Mind Strategy Psychological Focussed Counselling, Social Worker, AMHSW
Mind Strategy Psychological Focussed Counselling
Social Worker, AMHSW
Serves Area
Mind Strategy Psychological Focussed Counselling is a therapeutic practice which specialises in evidence based cognitive approaches such as Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, Cognitive Processing Therapy, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and Schema Therapy.
Mind Strategy covers a broad range of issues such as Trauma, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Anxiety, Depression, Mood Disturbances, Personality Disorders, Behaviour Management, Panic, Phobias, Relationship Issues, Chronic Stress, Grief and Loss. Mind Strategy can provide short-term or long-term counselling, adapting to your needs and goals. Mind Strategy endeavours to assist clients with the process of change. We offer insight into emotional and behavioural responses to thoughts, and provide rationale or reasoning behind unhelpful thoughts. Mind Strategy provides therapeutic support in a safe and nurturing environment.
Mind Strategy Psychological Focussed Counselling is a therapeutic practice which specialises in evidence based cognitive approaches such as Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, Cognitive Processing Therapy, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and Schema Therapy.
Mind Strategy covers a broad range of issues such as Trauma, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Anxiety, Depression, Mood Disturbances, Personality Disorders, Behaviour Management, Panic, Phobias, Relationship Issues, Chronic Stress, Grief and Loss. Mind Strategy can provide short-term or long-term counselling, adapting to your needs and goals. Mind Strategy endeavours to assist clients with the process of change. We offer insight into emotional and behavioural responses to thoughts, and provide rationale or reasoning behind unhelpful thoughts. Mind Strategy provides therapeutic support in a safe and nurturing environment.
(08) 7008 7096 View (08) 7008 7096
Photo of Hoa Pham - Hoa Pham - People Psychology, Psychologist, MA, PsyBA General
Hoa Pham - People Psychology
Psychologist, MA, PsyBA General
Serves Area
Her approach: Hoa utilises a range of evidence-based psychological treatments including but not limited to Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT), Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), Schema Therapy, mindfulness, and interpersonal and solution-focussed approaches.
Hoa is a fully registered counselling Psychologist who works with adults with a wide range of presenting issues including stress, anxiety, depression, trauma, grief and loss, and relationship difficulties. She is passionate about providing a safe space for clients to explore their situations and investigate ways for change. How can Hoa help you? Whether you need support, guidance, motivation or counselling, she can assist you in your journey. Please feel free to book an initial consultation with her.
Her approach: Hoa utilises a range of evidence-based psychological treatments including but not limited to Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT), Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), Schema Therapy, mindfulness, and interpersonal and solution-focussed approaches.
Hoa is a fully registered counselling Psychologist who works with adults with a wide range of presenting issues including stress, anxiety, depression, trauma, grief and loss, and relationship difficulties. She is passionate about providing a safe space for clients to explore their situations and investigate ways for change. How can Hoa help you? Whether you need support, guidance, motivation or counselling, she can assist you in your journey. Please feel free to book an initial consultation with her.
(03) 9034 6053 View (03) 9034 6053
Photo of Scott Jordan, Psychologist, PsyBA General
Scott Jordan
Psychologist, PsyBA General
Online Only
Scott understands that healing from trauma and dissociation is a deeply personal journey. His warm, empathetic approach helps you feel safe and supported as you work through past wounds to reclaim your life. Scott blends proven therapeutic techniques with a genuine commitment to your well-being, ensuring that every session is a step toward empowerment and lasting change.
Scott understands that healing from trauma and dissociation is a deeply personal journey. His warm, empathetic approach helps you feel safe and supported as you work through past wounds to reclaim your life. Scott blends proven therapeutic techniques with a genuine commitment to your well-being, ensuring that every session is a step toward empowerment and lasting change.
1300 252 064 View 1300 252 064
Photo of Jennifer Lalor - Jennifer Lalor Somatic Psychotherapy/EMDR, Counsellor, MA, PACFA
Jennifer Lalor Somatic Psychotherapy/EMDR
Counsellor, MA, PACFA
1 Endorsed
Serves Area
Waitlist for new clients
Whatever your situation, I know you are a unique individual with your own blend of needs. I create a non-judgemental space for you to explore whatever has brought you to seek my support and I can help you discover the next steps for your life.
Whatever your situation, I know you are a unique individual with your own blend of needs. I create a non-judgemental space for you to explore whatever has brought you to seek my support and I can help you discover the next steps for your life.
(02) 5602 4089 View (02) 5602 4089
David Eric Schofield
Psychologist, MA, PsyBA - Clin. Psych
Belrose, NSW 2085
David focusses on helping clients being "transformed by the renewing of their minds" using EMDR & Schema Therapy in a sensitive, person-centred approach that is practical and holistic and targets deep thinking patterns, including their roots in early experiences, including trauma.
Supervision for Clinical Registrars and provisionally/registered psychologists. Clients who have Christianity central to their identity and seeking to grow and thrive in the face of anxiety, depression, grief and trauma, in order to live "life to the full" by integrating their faith in the therapeutic experience.
David focusses on helping clients being "transformed by the renewing of their minds" using EMDR & Schema Therapy in a sensitive, person-centred approach that is practical and holistic and targets deep thinking patterns, including their roots in early experiences, including trauma.
Supervision for Clinical Registrars and provisionally/registered psychologists. Clients who have Christianity central to their identity and seeking to grow and thrive in the face of anxiety, depression, grief and trauma, in order to live "life to the full" by integrating their faith in the therapeutic experience.
(02) 8403 0501 View (02) 8403 0501
Photo of Stephen Hewitson, Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA - Clin. Psych
Stephen Hewitson
Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA - Clin. Psych
Bella Vista, NSW 2153
I use schema therapy (ST), CBT, ACT and DBT to help people break free from long standing patterns and move them towards the life they want to live.
I take a collaborative, evidence-based approach, helping clients explore the patterns, beliefs, and behaviours that keep them stuck. Together, we create practical strategies to manage anxiety, reduce stress, improve relationships, increase self-esteem and break free from unhelpful patterns. Interventions are tailored to the individual and their difficulties.
I use schema therapy (ST), CBT, ACT and DBT to help people break free from long standing patterns and move them towards the life they want to live.
I take a collaborative, evidence-based approach, helping clients explore the patterns, beliefs, and behaviours that keep them stuck. Together, we create practical strategies to manage anxiety, reduce stress, improve relationships, increase self-esteem and break free from unhelpful patterns. Interventions are tailored to the individual and their difficulties.
(02) 4703 5882 View (02) 4703 5882
Photo of Joanne McCarthy, Counsellor, MA, ACA-L4
Joanne McCarthy
Counsellor, MA, ACA-L4
Online Only
If you’re questioning your relationship, replaying conversations, or wondering how things became so confusing, you’re not alone. I’m Joanne, and I work with individuals making sense of complex relationship dynamics, particularly following unhealthy or overwhelming experiences. My approach is practical, clear, and grounded. Together, we build understanding, strengthen boundaries, and take steps to move forward with confidence. I offer both ongoing trauma informed, individual counselling and focused single-session appointments for immediate clarity and support.
If you’re questioning your relationship, replaying conversations, or wondering how things became so confusing, you’re not alone. I’m Joanne, and I work with individuals making sense of complex relationship dynamics, particularly following unhealthy or overwhelming experiences. My approach is practical, clear, and grounded. Together, we build understanding, strengthen boundaries, and take steps to move forward with confidence. I offer both ongoing trauma informed, individual counselling and focused single-session appointments for immediate clarity and support.
(08) 6206 8634 View (08) 6206 8634
Schema Therapy
How does schema therapy work?
Schema therapy is based on the idea that maladaptive thought patterns formed in childhood—that other people can never be relied on, for example—can interfere with healthy functioning in adulthood. Accordingly, schema therapy works by directly targeting such unhealthy schemas, identifying their consequences, and replacing them with more adaptive ways of thinking. To this end, schema therapists aim to “reparent” the client by offering what they didn’t get in childhood—validation, for instance, or compassion—to reorient their worldview.

Is schema therapy evidence-based?
Schema therapy is still considered relatively new, and research on its efficacy is still in progress. However, some studies have concluded that it can be effective at treating certain mental health conditions, most notably personality disorders such as borderline personality disorder. Evidence for its efficacy in treating conditions like depression, anxiety, PTSD, and OCD is promising but less conclusive, and experts warn that much of the existing research is of low quality.

Is schema therapy a type of CBT?
Schema therapy is based on many principles of CBT, most notably the process of recognising and challenging maladaptive thought patterns. But because schema therapy also draws from other approaches,including psychoanalysis and Gestalt therapy, it is not considered a form of CBT. It also typically delves deeper into the client’s childhood than does CBT.

How does schema therapy work?
Schema therapy does not call for a set number of sessions and is instead open-ended, with the treatment timeline depending on the client’s primary concern(s), progress, and preferences. Treatment that lasts between six months and two years is common, though many clients will start to see progress much earlier than that.