- Home
- Find a Therapist
- Topics
- Tests
- Magazine
- Psych Basics
- Blogs
- Diagnosis Dictionary
Many abused women in individual therapy withhold important details about their relationships. Most say they're embarrassed to be completely honest with their therapists. Read More













How do many ways can you spell Oink!
Having suffered years humiliating abuse from my wife, I find that not even allowing for abuse being reversed very sexist....
How do you spell compassion?
I am sorry to hear that you were abused and hope that you can find healing. Male abuse is a serious problem. I have worked with many abused males in Washington, DC. I have seen their gunshot and stab wounds. But I've never seen one who lived in fear or felt controlled and trapped by the fear. They live in shame. That is terrible, but it is much harder to control someone with shame than fear. Shame is about the self and amenable to self-regulation. Fear is about danger in the environment and resistant to self-regulation. The residual effects of fear can last a lifetime, while you can be "born-again" from the toxic effects of shame.
Abuse of males is a serious issue that must rise above self-righteousness and victim-identity. These must be replaced with self-compassion and basic humanity. That is how you overcome the effects of shame.
???
I don't expect you to explain further, but I don't understand this point at all, Steven.
Plenty of men are controlled by fear of their female partners' erratic, abusive behavior -- for example, fear of what they do to the children in retaliation for their dissatisfaction with their male partners, fear of what they will say publicly (thus jeopardizing family and even business relationships), fear of how much they will spend, and fear of how they can be so much more convincing to a family-court judge because they have less conscience or remorse and can lie so easily.
It seems to extend far far beyond shame.
Gina Pera, author
Is It You, Me, or Adult A.D.D.?
Fear vs. anxiety
You are talking about anxiety - dread that something bad will happen. Men have a dread of failure, including anything that could make them feel like failures as providers, protectors, lovers, or parents. Fear is a different circuit in the brain, part of the survival-based alarm system. Fear is about harm or annihilation and anything that threatens harm or annihilation, such as isolation and deprivation. The females of all species of social animals have a lower threshold of fear than males. Fear is more amenable to control and domination. Shame-avoidant behavior is aggression or withdrawal.
fear/shame and gender
I really think that I have traditionally been afraid of my wife--she got angry and I felt afraid. Or at least, I felt anxious, but I think of this as a low-grade fear rather than a dread of personal failure.
I think I have taditionally been conflict avoidant and not known how to react to an angry person. I am not really afraid anymore, but a year ago I was. I don't think it was related to shame--or perhaps it was, because I may have habitually felt responsible for other people's anger directed at me. But isn't a woman's fear often stemming from shame as well--isn't it common that a woman will blame herself for her husband's emotional abuse, and this is shame-based?
I don't really see why a woman's fear is actual fear and a man's fear is actually shame-based. I've read about your evolutionary explanation regarding the shame/fear dynamic, but I currently believe that I have been more susceptible to fear than to shame.
The biological vulnerability
The biological vulnerability to fear and shame between males and females of social animals is influenced by a great many variables, most notably hormone levels and traumatic experience. There are certainly men who would rather consider themselves failures than experience fear of harm, isolation, or deprivation, and there are certainly women who put shame-avoidance above fear-avoidance. Clinically speaking, fear-based men seem to seek out shame-based women. Colleagues who specialize in same sex couples say the same thing.
I suspect that the fear-shame dynamic underlies attraction, irrespective of gender. The shame-reactive person is likely to be attracted to someone who believes in him/her, especially that he/she can be successful and protective. The fear-reactive person is attracted to someone with whom he/she can form a nurturing alliance that promises long-term freedom from fear of harm, isolation, and deprivation. Fear makes you want to believe in someone, and shame makes you need to have someone believe in you.
It is not that men and women do not both experience fear and shame but the underlying vulnerability tends to be different. In general, fear of harm, isolation, or deprivation in a man is shame-invoking; shame in a woman invokes fear of isolation (If I fail, no one will care about me.) A social species is less likely to survive with males succumbing to fear and females alienating each other with status fights. But there are many exceptions.
re: the biological vulnerability
Thanks, that hjelps me clarify my view of the gender aspects of the fear/shame dynamic.
You said:
"Clinically speaking, fear-based men seem to seek out shame-based women."
And:
"I suspect that the fear-shame dynamic underlies attraction, irrespective of gender. The shame-reactive person is likely to be attracted to someone who believes in him/her, especially that he/she can be successful and protective. The fear-reactive person is attracted to someone with whom he/she can form a nurturing alliance that promises long-term freedom from fear of harm, isolation, and deprivation. Fear makes you want to believe in someone, and shame makes you need to have someone believe in you."
---------
Goodness, this sounds EXACTLY like the early dynamic between me and my wife (me-fear and she=shame) when we were both in an intense fatuation period and before our underlying vulnerabilities resulting in some very extreme emotional alienation.
I am reading your book, "Love without hurt," and I am finding it so very helpful. The only thing I can't really decide is, since I am the man, should I take on 90% of the work of repairing the relationship? Should I NOT compassionately insist that she participate in this book?
My wife (and I am not at all trying to assign blame here) tends to be angry and resentful, and I think she is consumed with shame--I found out a year ago that she has actually fabricated most of her adult life and created some very grandiose life stories. I think she did so because the truth is shameful to her. She tells lies about a lot of smaller things, I think because telling the truth is those situations is uncomfortable for her and again triggers some shame.
Obviously I have no real idea what I am talking about, but I strongly suspect borderline personality disorder--I hate even saying it because I don't mean it as a dismissal or a put-down of her core hurts, and I truly do see her core value. It's just that seeing her behaviors in light of a hotter temperament and a lot of shame seems very illuminating, after a year of research and education on the subject (most of which has been focused on what *I* can do to create a validating and compassionate environment).
Self-regulation must come
Self-regulation must come before you start to repair the relationship. She must be able to convert her resentment and anger to compassion and you must lower your naturally high reactivity level before relationship repair is possible.
Hopefully your wife is reading the book. But angry people are by definition blamers. So she will not see her anger as her problem. You might look at this post on getting your partner to a boot camp - you can use the same strategy for getting her to read the book: http://compassionpower.com/gethimtobootcamp.php
When you are ready to repair your relationship, the 90% rule for men is not about abuse so much as getting men to invest more emotionally in their relationships. There are individual exceptions, of course, but we men are not socialized to give the kind of emotional effort to a relationship that is required to repair damage. The repair imbalance is only for a few months.
self repair before relationship repair
Thanks, I appreciate your responses.
My wife is not currently reading the book. Once I finish it and I implement your program for conditioning myself to increase core value (and decrease my reactivity) in response to distress, I plan to work on getting her to read the book. I've read your "get him to boot camp" section and I do plan to try something similar to this. I am concerned that she just won't do it, or she will say she did and when I ask her what she thinks she'll ask me if I want a book report from her (which she said last time I asked her to read a book on relationship repair).
I'm undecided about leaving her if she refuses to change. She's actually gotten much less reactive this past year, though I think almost solely because I've been learning to think and speak much more compassionately and non-judgmentally, and much less reactively. I belong to a web group where I have been learning to depersonalize and to communicate in a validating manner (it can be found at http://www.anythingtostopthepain.com/, in case you are interested).
I gave my wife your book
Dr. Stosny, I gave my wife your book recently. She and I had a good conversation (I think from both of our perspectives) about resentment. She admits that she feels a lot of resentment, that she feels it is justified, but that she realizes that it is not helping her or the relationship to feel it. We both ended up sincerely apologizing for times when we hurt each other, while also both recognizing that this was never either of our goals. I actually told her that I didn't require any apologies--I just wanted us to feel compassion for each other.
I told her about your book and my sincere belief that it is a cure, and a relatively quick and effective one, for resentment. She became a little angry at the implication that I had felt any resentment in the marriage and wanted an explanation. She said she'd read it though. Unfortunately, this was a month ago and the book has not been opened. I think it will be a bit of a process to encourage her to read it. I'm trying to avoid pressuring her (unless I have to--ultimately I think she needs to read this book and commit to healing in order for our relationship to have a real future).
Domestic Violence
I am a counselor as well as a survivor of 18 years of domestic violence and abuse. I can tell you and your readers first hand just how much shame there is associated with being involved in domestic violence. Even telling one's family is extremely difficult. There is the constant fear that you will not be believed, especially if the abuser is successful and well liked.
It is difficult for anyone who has never personally experienced DV to imagine how horrendous one feels, whether man or woman, being involved with an abuser. The constant barrage of denegrading verbiage destroys one's self esteem.
My counselor was someone who was also a survivor. I personally feel that the best choice of counselor for this particular dysfunction is one who has personal experience. An abused client can feel free to tell me whatever he or she is experiencing because I have been there. This helps substantially with shame issues because he or she knows - we are the same.
If you are reading this and are a victim of DV please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE or on the web at http://www.ndvh.org/.
Therapist-induced shame.
I went to a therapist who had worked for years in the DV field and who also had an abusive husband. I told her that my long term boyfriend was a former abuser who now used only verbal and psychological abuse. She literally told me that the nice side of him was the real side, and that the nasty side of him was a false side, merely a coping mechanism. She wanted me to ignore the nasty side. She said if I didn't do that, then I would be doomed to go from relationship to relationship expecting perfection. I left her feeling that I had no right to expect him to stop verbally abusing me, that I was asking too much from a mere human being. This was definitely shame-inducing.
While it is good advice in a
While it is good advice in a non-abusive relationship to focus on the behavior you want to see more of, that strategy doesn't apply to abuse, which tends to worsen when not addressed.
I have found that what therapists mean by "appropriate" is just how they would react in similar circumstances. You want to work with one who will help you figure out what will produce safety and growth in your situation.
I have many other posts on this topic, and there is a wealth of information at http://compassionpower.com.
Misleading a therapist.
Pertaining to this article, my verbally abusive ex boyfriend told me that most therapists are easy to fool, and only rarely was that not possible. I neglected to ask why he had been to several of them, but perhaps him having been married five times so far might have been a clue. His statement was a little disconcerting but in light of this article I can see how a convincingly earnest abuser might mislead a trained observer.
Unfortunately, in my
Unfortunately, in my experience, your ex boyfriend is right.
And the way to handle it?
Thank you for this discussion.
My partner's therapist happened to be a much better support than my own, with her years of experience and with income differentials in our relationship. Yet the therapist's philosophy (even in the face of a pattern by her client of eventually stigmatizing and jettisoning her partners) was that "Everyone is an expert in her own experience." Initially, my partner was receptive to couples counseling, but only when the going was easy. After that, it was never acceptable in the company of her own therapist, only mine, who was less experience. You can guess how this story ended: Quite abruptly, and without much personal revelation or dialogue, the bond we had built was severed. "As far as I'm concerned, we're done as a couple," I was cuttingly informed.
Of course, when it fell apart, I was confused. There was no means to even restart the serious dialogue we had promised to each other at the outset.
All of this, I think, is independent of the issues that we each have as individuals, as I made several mistakes in the relationship too, of course -- Yet they were misreadings of a complicated woman, not sins.
So, this is a tricky situation. Therapists don't necessarily have the sway to convince their own clients to reassess fully.
They DO have an obligation as professionals to probe more deeply to understand the balance of power in a relationship -- and I see no reliable methodology for figuring that out in individualized therapy. Do you know of one?
If you sensed you were going down for the count in a relationship -- even when all the therapeutic support and opportunities for dialogue were in place -- how could you address this?
Steven Stosny
I have to wonder if Steven Stosny is simply too lazy to read the literature on female-perpetrated intimate partner violence or if he is just another of Psychology Today's anti-male bigots who justifies his prejudice on the grounds that 'men do more harm'.
Read the whole studies
Please cite the literature based on independent report, such as emergency room and police reports, that describes males living in fear and feeling dominated.
I have worked with many abused males in Washington, DC. I have seen their gunshot and stab wounds. But I've never seen one who lived in fear or felt controlled and trapped by the fear. They live in shame. That is terrible, but it is much harder to control someone with shame than fear. Shame is about the self and amenable to self-regulation. Fear is about danger in the environment and resistant to self-regulation. The residual effects of fear can last a lifetime, while you can be "born-again" from the toxic effects of shame.
I have also worked with some 4,000 well-documented abusive males and never met one who did not begin treatment feeling like a victim.
Abuse of males is a serious issue that must rise above self-righteousness and ego-identity. These must be replaced with self-compassion and basic humanity. That is how you overcome the effects of shame.
Counsel some more...
Men live I fear and are definitely trapped in abusive situations, that’s a simple fact and promotes- retaliation abuse by males.
I know for years I was trapped in a daily abusive situation with an alcoholic wife, why – yes I’m bigger but that really doesn’t play into it.
I happen to love my children what is a male to do? You leave in many cases you lose your kids you lose a large part of your income and your life is destroyed.
You try the hotlines and the “counselors” and there’s such a male bias you get depressed and isolated.
And in my case she started screaming chasing me and slapping me on a continual basis. God forbid she hits 911 your humiliated and abused further by the
System. I never defended myself physically, she use to chase me into the bedroom banging on the door calling me a coward all the time carrying the phone hoping
To set me up…this is what’s it’s come to, our system that terrorizes men and fathers in their own home.
No your point of view is definitely bigoted.
I finally had to leave when my son became a teenager able to make his own choices and told me that if I didn’t get us out of there he was going to move in
with a friend. We left and sure enough after the “lawyers” got through with us, we are much worst of physically but have a peaceful existence.
I suspect your wife would
I suspect your wife would have a very different version of the "reality" of your relationship, and I'm sure she and her therapist could diagnose you with NPD, just by the fact that you offer nothing about her perspective and are so disrespectful in your account. You stayed because you didn't want to lose half of YOUR income, not the family income. That kind of narcissism and blame doesn't look good.
Your story rings true
And you don't sound NPD to me.
Some people with unaddressed brain disorders will provoke a fight -- subconsciously, but all the same, they provoke beyond all reason -- and then when you finally give them what they want by responding with anger, that's when they punch 911.
Heard this story too many times to doubt it. And the fact is, for some people, the stimulation of the fight calms their brain. Moreover, they've created a level playing field -- making you as poorly regulated as they are.
What a mess.
Gina Pera
I am sorry that you were
I am sorry that you were abused. The system does need to be more responsive to male calls for help. Most police jurisdictions will arrest the party without the mark or evidence of abuse. Our DV classes are about 35% female abusers.
“Trapped by fear” means threatened with physical harm if the victim leaves. The most serious violence occurs under those conditions. Although you have certainly suffered, you have the power to heal yourself. The fear-based victim always has the threat of retaliation for leaving.
Please cite the studies you mentioned.
Okay, I think I understand now
If I have this right, you're saying that women are more likely to stay in an abusive relationship because they fear what will happen to them physically.
It seems I've read that the most common cause of death among pregnant women is murder by their male partners. So, I guess that relates somehow -- that men are more likely to solve their problems with physical violence.
Maybe women, being the better "talkers," are more prone to using verbal whiplashing. Scars of a different kind.
The very quality that makes
The very quality that makes therapists effective in helping with mental health and adjustment issues impairs them in dealing with abuse: the ability to accept and validate their clients, which requires believing their accounts of their lives.
Therapists who see emotional problems as an intrapsychic and rely on dogma for treatment are the most dangerous in abusive relationships. Those who see emotional problems as social phenomena with a great many aspects are more likely to urge their clients to see other people’s perspectives as well as clarifying their own.
As for power imbalance, the quickest indicator is ego-protection. The fragile ego is the most aggressive and most likely to substitute power for value.
Abusers do project a lot
I'm sure this article is absolutely true, as far as it goes. The great irony is that many partners of abusers worry whether they could be the "real" abuser instead--and what they could be doing wrong to "make" their spouse so mad at them all the time! Meanwhile, abusers imagine they're the victims! That perception is their reason for getting mad and abusing their partner.
What needs watching, as others have said above, is that all this is just as true when the sexes are reversed. If an abusive male makes his wife sound like "Mrs. Bates," an abusive female can just as easily make her own spouse out to be some kind of monster. Abusers are adept at projecting their own faults onto their partners. One of many examples was the husband-murderer Larissa Schuster, who told friends her husband was "controlling" and other complaints. One friend testified that this amazed them. It sounded nothing like the husband they knew... but what Schuster was telling them was an exact description of herself!
So it's wise to be duly cautious about some people's allegations of being abused. The flip side of the article's reference to borderline personality disorder can be found, for instance, in the amazon.com review of Patricia Evans's book "Controlling People" dated July 20, 2003. There a man relates how his wife consulted a self-styled "expert" on abusive relationships, who declared without hesitation--and without ever seeing the man--that her husband must be "abusing" her. As he explained in that review, this "expert" didn't know a thing about his wife's history of crazy behavior, of how she'd been diagnosed by professionals with more than one personality disorder, and dozens of counselors couldn't do a thing with her. She pulled the wool clean over that "expert's" eyes.
I can personally recall more than one woman who claimed her husband was "abusive," yet her own attitude and obvious anger problems demonstrated that she herself must be a difficult, not to mention controlling, person to live with. At the very least many couples are as bad as one another. One woman, after finally being ditched by the boyfriend she kept complaining about, physically assaulted his new girlfriend in the street and tore her hair out in handfuls! With a vile temper like that, no wonder the guy dumped her. She was downright dangerous!
Another woman, while giving very few details of his actual behavior, claimed her ex-husband had been a "narcissist," and constantly discussed the way "men abuse women." Yet her own behavior was almost clinically narcissistic. Among other things, the whole world had to be about her and her "issues," and anyone who thought otherwise was "offending" her! These and other behaviors (including what I saw her wrongly projecting onto others) led me to conclude she'd been the real "narcissist" in her marriage--and her husband could well have been a blameless victim. With some people it pays to be skeptical.
You're right.
The problem is victim identity and emotional reactivity, which I have addressed in previous posts and will apply it to abusive relationships in a future one.
completely agree
I completely agree with you, Cal.
That's the nature of denial, both the psychological but, more importantly, the physiological kind. These people are convinced that their perceptions are true, even if to everyone else their perceptions are highly distorted. And they are so convinced, they can be highly convincing to others.
Abusive women
Although I read this blog to help myself in my own emotionally abusive relationship (thank you!), I think it's relevant to point out on this thread a male friend of mine who was married to a female Tai Kwon Do champion. After suffering several broken bones over the course of their marriage, seeing his young son physically and mentally abused, he finally pushed her away from him (knocking her down) and left her. She was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, but he spent time in jail for domestic abuse and was the one to land in anger management classes. This is one man who did live in fear for his physical safety when in his wife's presence.
I know his story is rare, but I feel its important to tell his story.
I have seen similar cases in
I have seen similar cases in my work with the military where the wives are trained combatants. It is a terrible condition for those men. But I still haven't seen one where the male victim was trapped in the relationship by fear of harm. Part of the reason is that men have a much higher threshold of fear activation and a much lower threshold of shame activation, in the form of dread of failure as provider, protector, lover, or parent.
The point is not that there are no male victims or that male victimhood is not reprehensible, but that abuse of males, like parents who are abused by their children, does not constitute the same threat to society as abuse of women and children.
A society has to protect all its members, but most especially its most vulnerable.
A society has to protect all its members
I agree "A society has to protect all its members, but most especially its most vulnerable."
This doesn't seem to be virtue in the society we live in today. It is a "choice" to kill the most vulnerable human being, the unborn, in our society in this day and age that you so aptly named "The Age of Entitlement". So it seems society promotes Entitlement as a virtue. Therefore thanks for being a voice of fresh air in this "Age of Entitlement".
Post new comment