The Human Beast

Why we do what we do.

I object to the

I object to the characterization that it was Catholics who wanted houses that Protestants already had. The larger point stands, but why throw such a bomb?

I agree

Being an Athiest means you need to use philosophy to work out your moral code. In that case, the welfare of other people will trump religious dogma, which is a boon to society. Religion is detrimental in all ways.

Lowering the Argumentative Bar

This is a pedestrian essay with ridiculous observations. E.g, "The fact that some of the worst people can be so religious implies that religiosity is no guarantee of ethical behavior."

Well duh? That's why Christians call themselves "sinners".

And the author makes the dopier mistake of confusing religious affiliation with actual belief. Try reading the essay "On the Meaning of Contemporary Atheism" by Jacques Maritain. It was written in 1949, but is even more incisive today. Maritain fully elucidates both the nature of "practical atheism" and the failure of committed Christians to live up to Christianity's ideals. I.e., the church is populated by both sinners and saints.

And finally, public policy expert Arthur C. Brooks has demonstrated clearly that religious people are more generous than secular people in almost every dimension and income level. See his book, "Who really cares..." BTW, he has no ax to grind one way or another.

Being an atheist is fine by me. It's just nothing to write home about...

And OBTW, for your next essay, do your homework first...

If you care to briefly refer

If you care to briefly refer to the blog, then you would notice that the main claim is not that people who truly believe in religions are amoral; it is a moral comparison between people who think of themselves as religious and those who don't. The main point is that if people within these religions practiced the basic tenants of their religion of choice then they would behave in a moral and ethical fashion. What Barber is quickly recognizing is that the affirmation of a religious moral system does not correlate with people who carry out strong moral decisions. Furthermore, the people who are not "true believers" are in effect lying by saying that they are religious, but they are subscribing to the organized system of religion, in which it is amoral to lie, further pushing the point that a person who affirms organized religion is not necessarily a person who affirms strong moral decisions.

If you care to briefly refer

If you care to briefly refer to the blog, then you would notice that the main claim is not that people who truly believe in religions are amoral; it is a moral comparison between people who think of themselves as religious and those who don't. The main point is that if people within these religions practiced the basic tenants of their religion of choice then they would behave in a moral and ethical fashion. What Barber is quickly recognizing is that the affirmation of a religious moral system does not correlate with people who carry out strong moral decisions. Furthermore, the people who are not "true believers" are in effect lying by saying that they are religious, but they are subscribing to the organized system of religion, in which it is amoral to lie, further pushing the point that a person who affirms organized religion is not necessarily a person who affirms strong moral decisions.

Off By A Mile

Sorry Anon. You're not even close. Re:

"Psychologists find that religious belief stunts moral development..."

"Fundamentalist religions may undermine moral reasoning. People who "know" that they are saved, may be relatively unconcerned about who is hurt by their actions in this world."

The guy is explicitly saying that religion is morally net negative. E.g., being a devout Baptist can make somebody go out and rob a bank.

I suppose we'll have to shut down all the schools, hospitals, soup kitchens and homeless shelters that were created and sustained by morally stunted religious motivation.

And say, when are the atheists gonna start up the same in the name of secularism?

Don't defend mediocrity. The article is just a sloppy piece of tendentious work.

On the Green

I'm sure that there have been bank robbers who were baptist, in all seriousness but it is you who are missing the mark.

You are over personalizing this article, attempting to ridicule Barber's work by oversimplifying his arguments to the point that they are applied to single individuals rather than to society as a whole. Furthermore, Barber is arguing about all religions - not just Christianity. Externalize, for a moment, and consider the actions of Islamic fundamentalists. Their being religious won't make them rob a bank, but it might motivate them to hijack an airplane and fly it into a building. Islam is used every day to support the oppression of women, making rape victims the guilty parties.

Now return to Christianity. Historically, it has been used to oppress women, saying that they are the root of evil in the world, containing the spark of original sin, and women have not been allowed to rise above the power of being a nun until very recently, supporting a traditional patriarchal paradigm analogous to (if perhaps not as extreme as) that of Islamic nations. Also, it has silenced scientific progress from Copernicus to Darwin. Today, Christianity's extremism has been moderated through years of progress, but the vestigial traces of its moral impropriety still remain.

Lowering the Argumentative Bar Squared

Oh, puhleeze. It's impossible for me to simplify Barber's work any more than he already has. Because it's simplistically inane.

The fact that he's arguing universally against all religions without any kind discrimination and any understanding of theological reasoning implies that he's capable of tossing out mind dumps of secular bile and that's about it.

Has the Church been guilty of crimes? Of course. The Church admits that. It admits that it's populated by human beings who can fail the test of it's fundamental precepts. So what else is new?

Your blood red denunciation of Christianity without any kind of philosophical and historical nuance has you coming off just as intellectually stunted as Barber. Hey I wonder...?

Please. No one is writing

Please. No one is writing specifically against you and your personal beliefs, so please stop arguing as though we have.

I find it strange that you disapprove of arguing against all religions are a whole, as opposed to only Christianity, or Islam, etc. The research he cites don’t specifically state one religion over another so it wouldn’t make sense for the article to do otherwise. Besides, the point isn’t to talk about what is wrong in religions, but that belief in a higher power and dogma are not enough to make people act ethically proper. You can say people are fallible all you like, but that is the point. Religious practices often imply that a follower is either inherently good, or resists the urge to be otherwise through belief. That the statistics say otherwise shows what some (I repeat: some, not all) people have denied; that belief in religion is not necessary for moral behavior, which in itself undermines a number of close-held religious beliefs.

Now that is a good step in the right direction!

Quote:
"I suppose we'll have to shut down all the schools, hospitals, soup kitchens and homeless shelters that were created and sustained by morally stunted religious motivation.

And say, when are the atheists gonna start up the same in the name of secularism?"

As the religiously motivated branches of these organizations are prone to ethical violations and detrimental practices, I think this would be a good starting point! There are no truly sustained religious hospitals in the USA as all hospitals receive SECULAR funds through our SECULAR GOVERNMENT silly head...

Also hospitals have never really been a religiously friendly environment in the first place, going against everything the bible teaches its uneducated narrow-minded followers. please not prayer is not a medical practice and taking the power of death from imaginary friends like God(s) goes against the principles set forth in scripture.

"In America, as of 1999, 13% of all hospitals were religious (totaling 18% of all hospital beds); that's 604 out of 4,573 hospitals. [6] Despite the presence of organized religion in America, the Church has managed to scrape together only a few hospitals. Of these 604 hospitals many are a product of mergers with public, non-sectarian hospitals. Not all of these 604 hospitals are Catholic; many are Baptist, Methodist, Shriner (Masonic), Jewish, etc.

Despite the religious label, these so-called religious hospitals are more public than public hospitals. Religious hospitals get 36% of all their revenue from Medicare; public hospitals get only 27%. In addition to that 36% of public funding they get 12% of their funding from Medicaid. Of the remaining 44% of funding, 31% comes from county appropriations, 30% comes from investments, and only 5% comes from charitable contributions (not necessarily religious). The percentage of Church funding for Church-run hospitals comes to a grand total of 0.0015 percent."

"Of the 13% of religious hospitals, all of them are maintained by public funds. Those public funds are not paid for exclusively by the religious, they certainly aren't supported by American churches. If the religious hospitals were to be truly religious and separated from secular governmental subsidies they would collapse. The question that the Christian apologist should be asked is, "Where are all the truly religious hospitals?" Slapping a Catholic or Methodist label upon a hospital wall isn't sufficient enough to create a truly independent, private religious hospital free from Atheist support."

Please See : http://www.atheists.org/The_Question_of_Atheists_Hospitals

The religionist is mainly

The religionist is mainly dependent upon dogma and social approbation to resolve his moral conflicts, whereas the atheist must use reason, contemplation, and meditation to decide his moral issues. The religionist must only toe the line of religious authority to be moral, whereas the atheist must live with himself and his own feelingss.

For the religionist, a moral life is an almost automatic process, arrived at by passive acceptance of authority, whereas the atheist must ask constant questions and live in a condition of watchfulness to monitor his own behaviour so that it does least hurt and confers maximum benefit upon others.

It is not surprising that religionists are frequently "caught out" for their pecadillos and their respective societies punish them for their transgressions, as the morality of religions is almost totally dependent on following a set of rules unquestioningly. The violation of these rules, frequently by oversight, is a forgone certainty implicit in the very necessity for the rules in the first place.

The atheist operates without this handicap, assuming initially that all people are good, that only their motives may be bad, and moves from there to build his own moral being through experience and human empathy.

This is not to say that the religionist is inherently immoral or that the atheist is not, but only that the atheist must put conscious thought into the effort, thereby for most, being more frequently in a consciously moral state.

Perhaps the major immorality of religionists is their intolerant attitude against "non-believers", and the belief that the "non-believers" do not deserve to share in the bounty of the world or the grace of their god. In other words, for the religionist it is moral to treat the unbeliever in callous fashion, after all, he is not on the "right" side.

This latter attitude may have had some import in the studies quoted, as many religionists consider scientists and such as foes to their faith, consequently it is OK to lie to them and not cooperate.

Re: Lowering the Argumentative Bar

Like I said...

drama

i bet the author was expecting an uproar. way to not disapoint.

i believe in the point of the blog; religion or lack there of does not have any affect on whether or not someone is moral or ethical.
good people are good people and the athiest only shows that you don't necessarily need god to be a good person. people do bad things whether god is present or not. if you are a good person (at least for the most part) who is religious, your reason might be god. if you are a good person who is an athiest, then you simply have another reason for it. maybe you genuinely empathise with other people. maybe it just makes you feel good.

i guess what i'm trying to say is that a moral person will try to make moral decisions, period. it does not matter what thier reason is.

either way, the point of the blog still stands; no religion or religious affiliation has any influence people's behavior ingeneral.

Wow -- Encyclopedic Ignorance and Cherrypicking.

"Religious texts exhort people to behave charitably and with compassion but social scientists over the decades find little evidence of this affecting actions. Among the research findings assembled by sociologist Alfie Kohn"

You've got to be kidding. Look, I'm an atheist and a huge fan of EP, but you aren't being very honest. There's recent and repeatable data sets that show you to be wrong. How could you miss this? You can look into the work of Arthur Brooks, a recent study done by Google, or the book "Philanthrocaptialism" for some evidnece. These are data that control for other variables, which is a goal any research should do when trying to isolate causes or robust correlations.

I'm discounting this entire piece unless you can begin either reading before writing or start being more honest (or perhaps both).

Nor am I addressing the other fallacious points you make. This piece is so bad it's not worth any more of my time.

Or how about the recent

Or how about the recent empirical work from the universally respected evolutionary theorist David Sloan Wilson on prosociality and religion? You really aren't aware of this?

It's one thing to write outside one's expertise and get nearly everything incomplete or incorrect, but to not be familiar with the writings of Wilson, who is from your own field? Huh?

Or see what former president of the APA, Martin Seligman, has written on this. I'm not going to cite book and page numbers for you with either of these recommendations (or the others), since it would appear to serve you better if you spent more time reading generally.

Apologies for the typos in my original comment.

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Nigel Barber, Ph.D., is an evolutionary psychologist as well as the author of Why Parents Matter and The Science of Romance, among other books.

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