Steven Kotler is the author of West of Jesus: Surfing, Science and the Origins of Belief. His magazine writing has appeared in more than 31 publications. See full bio
Submitted by Speckles on November 25, 2008 - 8:39am.
Even if dogs and three year old children are intellectually and emotionally similar, I don't think you can call harming one the equivalent to harming the other.
Thing is children are more expensive. It takes far more effort and investment to raise a three year old then to get a dog; dogs are so prolific that we have to kill the excess in pounds. Dogs are far more 'replaceable' then toddlers, and so their lives will be considered less valuable. Of course, by this logic people should sacrifice more to protect endangered species, since it's easier to replace a human then, say, a cheetah, but that's a separate issue.
I do agree that 23 months is ridiculous though; torturing an unconsenting feeling being for the fun of it is disturbing.
Submitted by DeAnna on November 25, 2008 - 9:27am.
I fully agree with Steven Kotlers article on Michael Vick. Not only did he get way too lenient a sentence, but in doing so it shows others that this society just does not place any importance on the well-being of its animals. This society needs to get tougher on these "people" who torture innocent beings for fun and amusement and of course the almighty dollar. Lets face it, Michael Vick was doing this for the money. As if he needs any more. Giving him back his place in the NFL and his ridiculous salary will only show him and others that nothing that serious will really happen to you if you do these things. I say "Let him rot" also!!!!
Sorry, but comparing the killing of an animal to the killing of a child is just wrong.
By all means argue that Vick's crimes are repulsive and that he merits a longer sentence, but please don't make his deeds equivalent to the killing of a child.
The murder or torture of an innocent child OR dog is abhorrent. If you wish to argue that killing a dog in this manner is somehow more acceptable than killing a child, then please logically justify your position. Simply arguing that being a member of the human species merits one a higher value doesn't wash (especially since none of us can take credit for having been born as a human rather than a non-human).
Us humans have always used the tired, old argument that we as a species are greater than any other because of our intelligence, our emotional complexity, and our supposed sense of morality (although if you look around you, this could easily be disputed).
But since that antiquated view was first formally conceived thousands of years ago, some of the more intelligent humans on the planet have made incredible discoveries. Shocking but true; it has now virtually been proven that many animal species' level of intelligence is on par with or even exceeds that of many humans, namely; infants, young children, and intellectually handicapped individuals. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to observe that many animals lead rich emotional lives. And as for moral superiority, that too is highly debatable. Many, many species of animals demonstrate moral awareness and behaviour - even more so than humans in some areas. We conveniently ignore the fact that the human sense of morality is thrown out the window when it comes to other species. If there is no direct benefit to us as a species or even as an individual the rules suddenly change. What kind of a moral code is that? If you want to compare a dog's sense of morality with that of a human being, I would say the dog wins that one hands down.
So given all of the above, how can one argue that the way Michael Vick tortured and killed those innocent dogs is more acceptable simply because they were dogs and not humans? We all love our children and inherently possess a profound instinct to protect them. But let's not let our (understandably) biased feelings towards them cloud this issue. Pain is pain, suffering is suffering, and death is death, no matter what species you are. I can assure you that the dogs that Michael Vick heartlessly tortured and killed suffered no less physically or mentally than any small human child would have. This kind of intense pain and cessation of life is the great equalizer amongst all species. Therefore, the punishment should reflect the cruelty of the act itself, and not be any less than if it had been committed against a child.
There was a dark time in our recent history when horrific crimes went unpunished or the perpetrators only received a slap on the wrist. The justification? Despite the evidence to the contrary, some human races were almost considered non-human, not equal to certain other races; almost considered to be other "species" if you will. It was thought by many that these individuals were less intelligent and that their emotions were inconsequential. Therefore, inflicting pain, suffering, and death upon them was acceptable, for they were viewed as less valuable. Nowadays this notion is absurd, and it is hard to understand how some people could ever have had those beliefs. Eventually society evolved and racism is now considered unacceptable by the majority. However, the same story continues to play itself out in the present. The only difference is we can replace the word "racism" with "specieism." Eventually, in the future, society's views towards non-human animals will evolve as well. And Michael Vick's punishment is an excellent place to start.
Submitted by John Walt on November 25, 2008 - 11:18am.
Isn't the purpose of prison/jail time to rehabilitate the individual?
Let's retrace the steps that lead to Vick's involvement in dog fighting:
He grew up in an area where it is a cultural event to dog fight. He funded the operation so his friends could earn some money while he had millions. (Let's not forget this was a thousands of dollars operation and he had recently signed a $100 MILLION contract.)
He got caught. He was thrown in jail. If he is rehabilitated, then his sentence should be reduced. If he isn't then he should stay in jail. The nature of the crime is irrelevant.
Also, comparing dogs to infant children is an unfair comparison that merits an emotional response that is more diverse than anything a dog is capable of.
I read this site to get insight into the human mind, but all this blog did was make me not want to read your judgmental and misguided words again.
If killing a dog is at all similar to killing a three year old, what would be required of us if someone proved a cow's intelligence was comparable to a one year old, or a chicken's to a newborn's?
Following your line of logic, it's wrong to kill every animal, not just dogs. Everyone would be morally bound to being a vegetarian with no exceptions. Honestly, I just don't see how that makes sense.
Submitted by Mike Jones on November 26, 2008 - 4:26pm.
The link to vegetarianism is sound. No doubt about it. Reasoning and logic have lead to that conclusion.
It's not the reasoning that doesn't make sense it's the fact that this end result, what our morals demand of us is so drastically different than what we're used to, than what we expect.
For years we have been accustomed to treating animals as less than humans. This makes sense since animals are not humans, but why make such a harsh comparison? Why judge every pebble against mount everest? This doesn't make sense to me. Why not judge a pig against others pigs, or a chimp against other chimps? A scale that seems reasonable.
What doesn't make sense? That we should all be vegetarian? I suggest you look into vegetarianism, or veganism. These lifestyles enjoy many many positive attributes, from living a longer healthier lifestyle to fighting greenhouse gas emissions--climate change.
The reasoning is there. It's logical. The demands may be nonsensical because our brains cannot comprehend equality i mean how long has slavery been around? Or simply because we do not want to change our lifestyles, we do not want to do what our morals indicate so we dismiss the notion all together. But I assure you, philosophically speaking, the logic and reasoning has been right for centuries. Our lifestyles however have not caught up.
I think it's time we rethink our relationship with animals. I think it's time we really question the habits and prejudices we've picked up through history the ones we never gave another thought about.
I think that people and animals share a lot in common. I mean sure there are many differences as well, but what this blog is about is something we've all known for years. Animals have feelings too. If we put them out in the cold they shiver, if we don't give them water they get thirsty, if we shoot them they cower in pain.
I think we should give their interests equal consideration when making choices about them.
Anything less would be speciesim, the animal equivalent of racism--prejudices solely based on membership to a particular species. A very arbitrary distinction.
I hope I don't have to talk about why racism is wrong.
A good first step would be to stop any unnecessary pain or cruelty involving animals.
By the way I would argue a cow, dog, pig almost any mammal is more advanced both and intelligently emotionally than a newborn.
Submitted by John Walt on November 28, 2008 - 9:02am.
By that assertion, we need to examine how we treat prisoners and other 'evil-doing' humans. Capital punishment is a good place to start. Before we give rights to animals, shouldn't we investigate all the ways we mistreat humans first?
Not sure if that would work
Even if dogs and three year old children are intellectually and emotionally similar, I don't think you can call harming one the equivalent to harming the other.
Thing is children are more expensive. It takes far more effort and investment to raise a three year old then to get a dog; dogs are so prolific that we have to kill the excess in pounds. Dogs are far more 'replaceable' then toddlers, and so their lives will be considered less valuable. Of course, by this logic people should sacrifice more to protect endangered species, since it's easier to replace a human then, say, a cheetah, but that's a separate issue.
I do agree that 23 months is ridiculous though; torturing an unconsenting feeling being for the fun of it is disturbing.
Michael Vick
I fully agree with Steven Kotlers article on Michael Vick. Not only did he get way too lenient a sentence, but in doing so it shows others that this society just does not place any importance on the well-being of its animals. This society needs to get tougher on these "people" who torture innocent beings for fun and amusement and of course the almighty dollar. Lets face it, Michael Vick was doing this for the money. As if he needs any more. Giving him back his place in the NFL and his ridiculous salary will only show him and others that nothing that serious will really happen to you if you do these things. I say "Let him rot" also!!!!
OTT
Sorry, but comparing the killing of an animal to the killing of a child is just wrong.
By all means argue that Vick's crimes are repulsive and that he merits a longer sentence, but please don't make his deeds equivalent to the killing of a child.
Explain why not
The murder or torture of an innocent child OR dog is abhorrent. If you wish to argue that killing a dog in this manner is somehow more acceptable than killing a child, then please logically justify your position. Simply arguing that being a member of the human species merits one a higher value doesn't wash (especially since none of us can take credit for having been born as a human rather than a non-human).
Us humans have always used the tired, old argument that we as a species are greater than any other because of our intelligence, our emotional complexity, and our supposed sense of morality (although if you look around you, this could easily be disputed).
But since that antiquated view was first formally conceived thousands of years ago, some of the more intelligent humans on the planet have made incredible discoveries. Shocking but true; it has now virtually been proven that many animal species' level of intelligence is on par with or even exceeds that of many humans, namely; infants, young children, and intellectually handicapped individuals. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to observe that many animals lead rich emotional lives. And as for moral superiority, that too is highly debatable. Many, many species of animals demonstrate moral awareness and behaviour - even more so than humans in some areas. We conveniently ignore the fact that the human sense of morality is thrown out the window when it comes to other species. If there is no direct benefit to us as a species or even as an individual the rules suddenly change. What kind of a moral code is that? If you want to compare a dog's sense of morality with that of a human being, I would say the dog wins that one hands down.
So given all of the above, how can one argue that the way Michael Vick tortured and killed those innocent dogs is more acceptable simply because they were dogs and not humans? We all love our children and inherently possess a profound instinct to protect them. But let's not let our (understandably) biased feelings towards them cloud this issue. Pain is pain, suffering is suffering, and death is death, no matter what species you are. I can assure you that the dogs that Michael Vick heartlessly tortured and killed suffered no less physically or mentally than any small human child would have. This kind of intense pain and cessation of life is the great equalizer amongst all species. Therefore, the punishment should reflect the cruelty of the act itself, and not be any less than if it had been committed against a child.
There was a dark time in our recent history when horrific crimes went unpunished or the perpetrators only received a slap on the wrist. The justification? Despite the evidence to the contrary, some human races were almost considered non-human, not equal to certain other races; almost considered to be other "species" if you will. It was thought by many that these individuals were less intelligent and that their emotions were inconsequential. Therefore, inflicting pain, suffering, and death upon them was acceptable, for they were viewed as less valuable. Nowadays this notion is absurd, and it is hard to understand how some people could ever have had those beliefs. Eventually society evolved and racism is now considered unacceptable by the majority. However, the same story continues to play itself out in the present. The only difference is we can replace the word "racism" with "specieism." Eventually, in the future, society's views towards non-human animals will evolve as well. And Michael Vick's punishment is an excellent place to start.
Rehabilitation?
Isn't the purpose of prison/jail time to rehabilitate the individual?
Let's retrace the steps that lead to Vick's involvement in dog fighting:
He grew up in an area where it is a cultural event to dog fight. He funded the operation so his friends could earn some money while he had millions. (Let's not forget this was a thousands of dollars operation and he had recently signed a $100 MILLION contract.)
He got caught. He was thrown in jail. If he is rehabilitated, then his sentence should be reduced. If he isn't then he should stay in jail. The nature of the crime is irrelevant.
Also, comparing dogs to infant children is an unfair comparison that merits an emotional response that is more diverse than anything a dog is capable of.
I read this site to get insight into the human mind, but all this blog did was make me not want to read your judgmental and misguided words again.
Let's keep it clean.
Vegetarianism
If killing a dog is at all similar to killing a three year old, what would be required of us if someone proved a cow's intelligence was comparable to a one year old, or a chicken's to a newborn's?
Following your line of logic, it's wrong to kill every animal, not just dogs. Everyone would be morally bound to being a vegetarian with no exceptions. Honestly, I just don't see how that makes sense.
Time to rethink our relationship with nature and other animals
The link to vegetarianism is sound. No doubt about it. Reasoning and logic have lead to that conclusion.
It's not the reasoning that doesn't make sense it's the fact that this end result, what our morals demand of us is so drastically different than what we're used to, than what we expect.
For years we have been accustomed to treating animals as less than humans. This makes sense since animals are not humans, but why make such a harsh comparison? Why judge every pebble against mount everest? This doesn't make sense to me. Why not judge a pig against others pigs, or a chimp against other chimps? A scale that seems reasonable.
What doesn't make sense? That we should all be vegetarian? I suggest you look into vegetarianism, or veganism. These lifestyles enjoy many many positive attributes, from living a longer healthier lifestyle to fighting greenhouse gas emissions--climate change.
The reasoning is there. It's logical. The demands may be nonsensical because our brains cannot comprehend equality i mean how long has slavery been around? Or simply because we do not want to change our lifestyles, we do not want to do what our morals indicate so we dismiss the notion all together. But I assure you, philosophically speaking, the logic and reasoning has been right for centuries. Our lifestyles however have not caught up.
I think it's time we rethink our relationship with animals. I think it's time we really question the habits and prejudices we've picked up through history the ones we never gave another thought about.
I think that people and animals share a lot in common. I mean sure there are many differences as well, but what this blog is about is something we've all known for years. Animals have feelings too. If we put them out in the cold they shiver, if we don't give them water they get thirsty, if we shoot them they cower in pain.
I think we should give their interests equal consideration when making choices about them.
Anything less would be speciesim, the animal equivalent of racism--prejudices solely based on membership to a particular species. A very arbitrary distinction.
I hope I don't have to talk about why racism is wrong.
A good first step would be to stop any unnecessary pain or cruelty involving animals.
By the way I would argue a cow, dog, pig almost any mammal is more advanced both and intelligently emotionally than a newborn.
Shouldn't we start with humans?
By that assertion, we need to examine how we treat prisoners and other 'evil-doing' humans. Capital punishment is a good place to start. Before we give rights to animals, shouldn't we investigate all the ways we mistreat humans first?
Yes, let him rot!
I completely agree with this post. There is nothing more to say.
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