The science behind 12-step programs and rehabs is severely flawed. Read More
Long story short: One of the most important subjects in our society. Drug and alcohol addiction is linked to nearly 99% of all violent crimes. And, the courts mandate a 12 step program, which may actually hurt more than help.
Long story long:
Like music to my ears! I've been saying as much for the last 10+ years, to anyone that would listen. Counting days and hanging around alcoholics, talking and thinking about alcohol constantly, is a recipe for disaster. Leads to worse relapses when you lose your precious prestigious place as a 1 -2 year know-it-all. And / or makes you just lie to gain respect of the group.
And, I've noticed things tend to gain importance and 'get bigger' the more you focus on them. Sitting around talking about drinking is analogous to a dieter stocking their fridge with big macs.
And, of course, if you give in, it's because you didn't have the moral fearlessness, or whatever cockamamie nonsense they espouse.
Personally, I (only) began truly recovering after I attended an experimental group testing Naltrexone and received in depth substance abuse counseling. They taught me to count my drinks and if I slipped, make the slip very small. Etc.
This was after 15 years of feeling like I was a failure as a human being. Because I would promise myself then a day later start having DT's and give in. I blamed myself and came very near suicide many times, thinking I had a moral weakness.
Anyways, can't wait to check out your book.
Will buy a copy and also recommend my library to acquire one as well. Thank you for writing this. Can't wait.
. . . in finding the 5% to 10% success rate?
Conquering an addiction takes many tries and many failures, so I believe that anything less than a 10-year time frame doesn't give a good idea of how many multiple tries are finally successful.
Until the "pleasure principle" in the brain is defeated by the "rational" brain, addiction gets to continue. No time frame can be put on that battle!
I got sober via a 12-step oriented treatment center, 12-step (along with New Age religion and the Enneagram Personality theories - i.e. BULLSHIT) oriented long term treatment center. I have been without alcohol for 21 years. Success right? Well, somewhat; during this time I struggled with serious anxiety disorders and depression, but I kept getting a definite message from AA meetings that if AA wasn't fixing everything then I wasn't doing AA right. The steps re-inforced my self-criticism, feelings of failure, and even self-hatred. I never felt "good enough", and was basically given a "spiritual" path that told me I wouldn't be, that all problems were of my own making. When a friend in the "fellowship" who always swore against psych meds gave up her fight, followed by a death in my family, I gave up my fight. I got help. Taking one little pill every day after a couple of weeks opened my eyes and made me able to actual have some positive feelings again. At that point 17 years of beating myself up with the steps had not done this. I was already in talking therapy, and now it can actually help me make progress where it could not do so before.
Not drinking was necessary for me, I self-medicated almost to death, literally. I feel that alcohol became such a go-to for me to try to fix my anxiety and depression that I can't afford to drink. That's fine, but I also needed to adress the underlying issues that I knew, no matter what kind of BS I was told to believe to the contrary in AA, that I drank over. They will help you re-write your own story in AA to make it fit with their philosophy, there's a point I reached where I didn't know what my story really was anymore, or why I had to feel so bad all the time. I just knew I'd better hide it or I would be told to work the steps that much harder. In the end I had to admit my REAL story again and seek more help. I've heard in "the rooms" that people with over 20 years who relapse often die. I can say I know why at least some of them do.
I am going to download your book on Kindle so I can read it now. Don't want to wait for a hard copy on this one.
This is a great book if for no other reason than it brings to light the unscientific dogma of AA and how most Rehab facilities use the AA template in-house and to farm out their expensive clients to free AA meetings!! That may make for a great, "Business Model," for Rehabs, but not a good therapeutic or moral model.
I speak from experience. I had a heroin addicted son who went to multiple rehabs. They all promoted and fell back on the free non educated baby sitter of AA.
Yes, AA meetings are free. And NA meetings are free.
All of the other sobriety meetings are free too. For example:
Secular Organizations for Sobriety (SOS)
Women For Sobriety (WFS)
Why aren't there more free sobriety meetings that are secular?
Where are the unpaid volunteers who will act as the facilitators for free secular sobriety meetings in the local community?
Why don't secular people volunteer to facilitate free secular sobriety meetings?
Why are most of the free sobriety meetings facilitated by unpaid volunteers who are religious?
I have served as a "volunteer" for S.O.S. (one of the SECULAR mutual support groups) for the past 6 years, in no less then 3 So. CA counties! Part of the problem with others NOT "stepping up" in this role is: 1.) they do not know they can, and 2.) do not have a "guilt trip" put on them by the secular mutual support groups to "carry the message", the way the 12 Step groups do (all that PROMOTION that they do, and then somehow claim they don't!). Example: I am located in the Imperial Valley now. I have heard NO LESS THEN 3 commercials on an FM radio station down here (KXO-107.5, FM!) for. . . . A.A. (with a local phone number to call and everything!). Secular groups DO NOT DO THAT (though they should-as they are NOT so hypocritical as to say they do not engage in "promotion", while running radio commercials!). I doubt that ANY secular, mutual support groups would be THAT ARROGANT, or self-serving. Hence the lack of secular mutual support groups. If you check their sites, but S.O.S., AND SMART Recovery are BEGGING for "meeting facilitators" (SMART), and "conveners" (S.O.S.). They are genuinely desired, and do NOT resort to PROMOTIONAL ADVERTISING on commercial radio to do it!
Atheistically Yours says: "S.O.S., AND SMART Recovery are BEGGING for "meeting facilitators" (SMART), and "conveners" (S.O.S.)."
LifeRing Secular Recovery is also begging for volunteers. They call their meeting facilitators "convenors" just like SOS calls their meeting facilitators "convenors."
Why don't secular people volunteer to facilitate/convene a sobriety meeting?
Atheistically Yours says: "Part of the problem with others NOT "stepping up" in this role is: 1.) they do not know they can and 2.) do not have a "guilt trip" put on them by the secular mutual support groups to "carry the message"
I agree that secular people seem very disempowered. They don't seem to know that they can volunteer to facilitate sobriety meetings, just like religious people volunteer to facilitate religious meetings.
I agree that secular people don't seem very motivated. They don't have the religious fervor that religious people have to promote the 12 Step program of the Big Book (AA) and the 12 Step program of the Basic Text (NA).
Secular people don't seem motivated to promote the secular program books in the same way that religious people are motivated to promote the Big Book and the Basic Text (NA).
Secular Program Books:
Secular Organizations for Sobriety (SOS) - How To Stay Sober, Unhooked, SOS Sobriety
Smart Recovery - Smart Recovery Handbook
Lifering Secular Recovery - Empowering Your Sober Self, Recovery By Choice Workbook.
AA/NA - Living Sober
take a look at the work of Minnesota Alternatives and also Dr. Mark Willenbring. Both are working in the substance abuse field using scientific models versus AA models. With success. The "one-size fits all AA may work for some but it is a model developed in the 1950's and its not science based. Surely we can do better. 90 percent failure rate is abysmal.
Dear anonymous... I took your advice and checked out Dr. Willenbring's website and was quite astonished to see how much better he seemed to be doing when compared to the national average:
Why he scored a perfect 5 out of 5 for: Ease of scheduling urgent appointments (I guess it must be tough to book a non-urgent appointment)
Another perfect 5 out of 5 for: office environment, cleanliness, comfort etc (how does one get a 5 out of 5 for "etc?)
For Staff friendliness and courteousness? You guessed it, another 5 out out of 5 - impressive.
In fact, Dr. Mark Willenbring scored a perfect 5 out of 5 in every single category of his patient surveys, including: Level of trust in provider's decisions, how well provider explains medical conditions and of course the most important of them all: Total wait time (waiting & exam rooms) - EPIC!
We can definitely do better alright...
Heaven forbid should something created in the 30's (not the 50's; do your research, I did) still work almost a 100 years later and it's not "scientific-based" - oh the humanity!
A 90% failure rate is abysmal, but until you or someone else can show me the research that backs those numbers up then I might just as well let you know that I am a multi-miliionaire. It's not true, but if I hadn't told you that you'd be running around tomorrow telling all your friends that a multi-millionaire put you in your place on a Psychology Today Blog - simply because you read it somewhere!
AA won't just get you sober, it will transform your life and give you inner peace and happiness, if you actually work the program that is; "RARELY have we seen a person fail who has THOROUGHLY followed in our footsteps...."
But hey, if you want to wait around til science comes up with a pill that can do all that then you be my guest... in the meantime, I'm going to go about living this fabulous life I have, one day at a time - all thanks to AA...
Jay's comment reflects the major logical error in addiction studies. He quotes Bill Wilson's Big Book that people who follow the program do well. The problem is that there are now a large number of studies that show that only a tiny percent of people who attend AA do "follow" the program. They drop out and get blamed for their "failure" when actually it is the AA approach that fails 90% of people. Most people don't "work the program" not because THEY are failures but because they've found AA is useless (or worse) for them. As for showing Jay the studies, I respectfully suggest he read The Sober Truth, which is filled with them.
I read a lot of negative blogs/opinions about the AA program. I work in the health field and happen to be a greatful recovering alcoholic. I see the suffering that occurs to those less fortunate than myself. Those who I have come across who have managed to live sober and remain so are only those who work a 12 step program. We have learned to live and love unselfishly on lifes terms. We gain strength through fellow ship and helping others in need. Its been my observation and experience even if one is sober, without changing and working on your defects through the program you still have just as many problems as when using.
If you lived "life on life's terms", you would admit that you are a RECOVERED alcoholic (or do you plan to go back to it soon?), and that there is ZERO NEED for you to EVER have to attend a bullshit 12 Step meeting EVER AGAIN! Staying sober, INDEPENDENT of "mutual support" groups-THAT is living "life on life's terms".
You are completely missing the whole concept of this artile. I would expect a more rational interpretation of recovery, seeing as you work in the field. That's the problem right there. You may have found all you need through working a 12 step program, but what about the millions who still struggle with understanding, let alone the millions involved in 12 step recovery who blame themselves for not throughly doing a step 4 or 5, as a result relapsing. I understand aa/na is meant for the better good; at it's time of uprising. It's like the classic creationism vs science. Science continues to debunk myth after myth and creationsim continues to use their one point, of in this case of 12 step recovery "a power greater than yourself to restore you to sanity" Some people just need a realistic view of addiction, not spirtually guided feel good about yourself narrcissitic view. Start looking at recovery as an indivdual battle where people interpret things differently. That's what would make you an acceptable health field addiction worker. Show the individuals all avenues of treatment and long-term recovery.
So Jay, where ARE the objective, peer-reviewed, scientific-journal-published studies that PROVE that A.A. has ANY sustaining effect in keeping an ex-alcoholic sober, over ANY period of time? Remember now, A.A.'s membership criteria is based in the "DESIRE TO STOP" drinking-not the ACT of actually achieving that (so those who somehow GET sober in A.A. automatically no longer meet membership criteria, and must be EXCOMMUNICATED ACCORDINGLY! As far as that "Rarely have we seen a person fail" gibberish-that may have been true in the small population (and even smaller sales!) of the "Big Book" in 1939 (that even THEN no reputeable publisher would publish!), but its 75 years later now. Welcome to the 14th year of the 21st Century! There are MANY MORE ALTERNATIVES-both in the medication, AND mutual support group realm. How come A.A. does not commission a study comparing ITS "results" to that of: Naltrexone, or SMART Recovery, or individual therapy (that Dr. Doddes is an advocate of!)? Get back to this page when you have an answer. I'll wait.
Carl Jung was one of the catalysts involved in starting AA.
He knew it worked.
He was an honest scientist who realised that he couldn't help a REAL alcoholic.
Scientists have proved that alcoholics have different chemical balances in their brains that earthlings don't have.
AA is not a religious programme.
If you don't believe that there is something more powerful than your own willpower, you have no hope, because you were powerless over alcohol when you were drinking.
Only two criteria for being an alcoholic:
1.Lack of choice, i.e. drinking when you didn't want to
2. Lack of control, i.e. when you start drinking, you cannot control how much you drink.
anything else is just symptoms, not the problem.
If you don't have either of those two, you're probably not an alcoholic.
In what universe (besides Planet 12 Step!), is an alleged "lack of choice" in the ingestion of an intoxicating substance made when:
1.) WILLING, KNOWING, AND VOLUNTARY HUMAN INTERVENTION is involved to acquire, and ingest that substance?, and
2.) The INGESTOR OF the substance gets to decide: a.)HOW the substance is ingested, b.) how much of the substance is ingested per each individual ingestion, c.) the location the ingestion takes place, d.) the monetary price paid to acquire the substance, e.) how the ingestor gets TO the substance, and f.) how much time goes by between "doses" of the substance ingested? WHERE IS THE ALLEGED LACK OF CONTROL IN ALL THIS? It is NOT the substance making these decisions!
And if AA is somehow NOT "religious" then WHY do 6 of the 12 steps involve a DIRECT OR IMPLIED REFERENCE to "God", or the capitalized personal pronoun of "Him"? Those are NOT declarations of atheism!
. . . except when someone is telling his or her OWN story, are always qualified by "as we understood him." That's why many of us talk about a higher power, rather than God. It was certainly a relief for me to discover that I was not responsible for all the ills in the world.
There are quite a few atheists who feel comfortable in AA--because when others talk about God, we don't feel that THEIR belief is what WE have to believe. In fact, AA is the most tolerant organization in the universe, and I believe that's one of the main reasons for its continued existence and its continued success for many of us.
As to the choice element, people who take such insistent stands about the behavior of others are usually really worried about what they themselves are doing. Motes and beams?
Carolyn, you are the epitomy of PROVING the pathetic mental gymnastics 12 Steppers will go through to: 1.) NEGATE THEIR OWN INDIVIDUALITY (AA is EXCELLENT AT THAT!), and 2.) allegedly "proving" that AA's own pathetically-written steps DO NOT MEAN WHAT THEY SAY, NOR SAY WHAT THEY MEAN (in which case, WHY DO THOSE WORTHLESS WORDS EVEN EXIST?). AA is, and remains ABOUT PROMOTING RELIGION (AA likes to call it "spirituality"!). It is so pathetic that it CANNOT BE HONEST WITH ITSELF, much less have "members" that postulate its false precepts as you do, and PROMOTE IT, in spite of the "tradition" against doing so!
You're free to believe what you want to believe, and to practice what works for you, and I am free to do the same.
Uh, Carolyn-have you even READ those "12 Steps" that you CLEARLY PROMOTE (in violation of the tradition against doing so!) each time you make a post on here? WHICH STEP mentions the INDIVIDUALIZED PRONOUNS of "I" "YOU", or "ME"? THEY ALL have PLURALIZED PRONOUNS, and are written in the PAST TENSE no less (so how DO 12 Steppers "work" a sentence that was written for the PAST, in the PRESENT?). AA is all about its "group mentality"-the individual be damned! If AA had ANY respect for the "individual", Bill W. would have at least acknowledged them when he coughed that 12 Step verbage out in 1939! He DID NOT! An "individual" means NOTHING in A.A., only the GROUP counts! How pathetically cultish!
No need for such hostility.
Too bad you interpret HONEST as "hostility", AND that you feel you are being "attacked" for getting CALLED OUT on your selfless promotion of a "program" with its TRADTION that states it is NOT supposed to be "promoted". Stand by, why I call the WAA-mbulance!
. . . as hostility.
Dear Dr. Dodes,
I would be happy to purchase and read "The Sober Truth" but you will need to give me a little time to read it before I can comment on it, obviously.
Simply stated, perhaps the scientific community should be looking at why the program works for some and find ways of improving upon that instead of simply shooting it down as flawed. That's great that you've given me a resource that challenges the method and results of AA, but why don't you put forth an example of a viable alternative to AA that is having good results.
If the program works if you work it, then how can the program itself be "flawed"? If ABC company hires me to be a sales person and I don't actually go out and do my job, is the company that hired me flawed, or am I as an individual accountable for my lack of success?
If I give you a road map to my house and you don't use it and you end up lost, is that my fault? Was the map flawed? If the program works for only 10% of people the perhaps the scientific community should study the 10% of people who are successful to understand the difference between the two groups, in order to increase the odds of success for the other 90% of people?
I guess if you did that, it might hurt book sales...
I will read the book you suggested, with an open mind, and I will come back and comment - you have my word on that...
Jay, When i referred to the model developed in the 1950's i was talking about the Rehab Industry model of 28 day stay and based upon AA. Not AA itself. We're not waiting for a pill. Just waiting for treatment that actually helps people. And yes, science and study will hopefully help to open the way for that. I'm glad that you have a fabulous life but you sound pretty snarky and angry. Maybe AA can help with that.
Without digressing into details, my own personal experience is that anonymity in AA is often used by sexual predators to conceal and cover their true motives.I have experienced predation in institutional settings and at ordinary meetings. AA is an excellent cover for outrageous and deviant behavior. So much for accountability and responsibility!
There is one epithet which remains true in all this- Alcoholics will lie to you, then they will deny lying to you.
Wow! What a statement that is. Apart from being uneducated and downright ignorant, it is so blatantly inaccurate! Predators are a fact of life unfortunately. Sexual predators can be found in every walk of life including, but not limited to: teachers, Doctors, politicians and of course Catholic Priests.
Should we then put and end to schools and education and the profession of teaching? Should we condemn the entire medical community for actions like those of Dr. George Doodnaught? Should we abolish all religion, and in particular the single-largest religion in the world, Catholicism, because of the actions of a few? Come on!
Outrageous and deviant behaviour exists everywhere including in the rooms of AA. Fortunately however, most of us are aware that there are men and women out there, who despite all that they have learned, still behave badly and we do our best to protect everyone from that very kind of behaviour, but of course we can't be there all the time.
Preying on the sick and the weak, which most of us are in early recovery, is downright disgusting and reprehensible behaviour - but it occurs everywhere. To single out AA for that was both unfortunate and irresponsible on your part, so grow up and accept that you're sadly going to find predators everywhere you go and stop your infantile condemnation of entire institutions based on the actions of a few!
I can't believe I even bothered to respond to your uneducated assertion but it was after all, the elephant in the room!
Adrian made a factual observation on the topic under discussion.
I'm quite certain, as we all our that such predator behavior is not unique to AA.
The only elephant here is your anger.
I've heard the same excuse from some AA members I spoke to when I asked them, "Shouldn't AA make rules against sexual harassment and other behaviors?"
I heard in response, "Rape happens everywhere, not just in AA." The question was evaded. I couldn't get a straight answer.
I don't think AA can protect anyone 100% of the time- but it sends a clear message to the members not to expect any help from AA if something should go wrong. Especially when members are a mix of court ordered violent and sexual offenders. Some people are deranged enough to think they can get away with things if there are no rules.
Schools and churches have policies in place- rules against hurting each other. Consequences are clearly outlined. Sure, a person can call the police on an AA member for hurting them. But an AA member, who wishes to remain anonymous, may not come forward as a victim or a witness in these circumstances. In addition, they might be looking for their "part in it" and making "amends." After all, they're working a good, honest program.
Without policies, it appears like AA doesn't care. Yes, that's a partially an emotional plea, but it's also a legal one. You have the inmates running the asylum at meetings, this is the result you're going to get.
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Lance Dodes, M.D., is an assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School.
It can take a radical reboot to get past old hurts and injustices.