Stop Walking on Eggshells

So, if arrested emotional development is the root issue (aka low emotional intelligence) then it makes sense that those with bpd would lack the capacity for empathy because the ability to accurately recognize emotions in others (cognitive empathy) and then actually feel the pain of others with them, and desire to comfort another person in pain (affective empathy) does not exist in infancy, and only develops in children between the ages of two and four. (If I understand what I've read about emotional development in children correctly.)

I have read that those in the Autism spectrum disorder tend to lack cognitive empathy: they can't decipher what other people's emotions are, but once made to understand that "Your friend is sad because his puppy died" the person with autism can then feel affective empathy: he feels sad for his grieving friend, and wishes to comfort his friend.

On the opposite side of the coin, those with narcissistic pd (and those with antisocial pd and psychopathy) have very keen cognitive empathy. They can "read" other people's emotions and even their subconscious wishes and motivations with uncanny accuracy. But npds and psychopaths lack *affective empathy*: they genuinely do not care about your feelings. Instead they use their cognitive empathy to "read" you, then manipulate, con and exploit you as effectively as possible. If a narcissistic pd, antisocial pd or psychopathic person appears to be empathetic and comforting toward you, its because they want to endear themselves to you: gain your trust and love so they can more easily use you. Npds and psychopaths learn to mimic the behaviors and words of empathy, but its just an act.

So, possibly, those with borderline pd possess a rudimentary capacity to experience cognitive and affective empathy, but are only able to engage these two types of empathy when their own emotional state is relatively calm and stable. The minute stress/negative cognition comes into play, the fragmented, atrophied ability to empathize is completely overwhelmed and washed away by the flood of emotions that are totally self-focused.

So the result is the same as if the person with bpd lacked all capacity for empathy, entirely. If displaying empathy for another is at cross-purposes with the bpd's goal of receiving attention and validation for herself, having the other person soothe the bpd's fears, etc., or if all empathy gets swept away by sudden, extreme, fluctuating emotions, then its as though there aren't even rudimentary fragments of empathy there to begin with.

I read of a study that proposes that the Cluster B disorders are perhaps on a spectrum of psychopathy and represent sub-clinical forms of it. I also read a paper proposing that borderline pd in particular may possibly be the female phenotypic expression of psychopathy. These theories sound plausible to me.

My feeling is that at this point in time we are still at the very tip top of the iceberg that represents what we *don't* know about mental illnesses and their causes, and we won't chip our way down even as far as the waterline for decades.

-Annie

I have a close family member on the autism spectrum and have an asperger's syndrome diagnosis myself. I have met some BPD people and am related to some Narcissists. What I notice is that autistic people sometimes are very empathetic, but they just can't show the empathy/sympathy in real time. In other words, they may have a delayed ability to know what to say. Autistic people are known for having very fine ethics and very seldom have any desire to hurt anyone, although they themselves are frequently targeted and brutalized by "normal" people.

On the other hand, my understanding and experience with BPDs and NPDs is that they keenly understand the minds, histories and feelings of others and use this understanding to craft absolutely vicious and potentially deeply scarring punishments that they wield against those who they FEEL deserve to be punished. It takes the ability to mentalize to be able to act with surgically precise brutality. Now as to whether or not the BPD person would later feel bad about ripping the heart out of a "loved one" and stomping on it... I don't know. Maybe they can feel guilt.

Seems like BPDs need to be taught what morality is, rather than how to mentalize.

It's an interesting question: can a person with bpd feel empathy for another? I don't know. Maybe some people can. If my mother feels empathy, she doesn't express it.

Everything is about her all the time. And as she ages, this is getting worse. We have one 15-minute phone call twice a month, initiated by me. I call and she talks about whatever...sometimes she rants and raves at me for the ways I've hurt her in this past week (which is comical, because I live across the country with her and have very, very limited contact). She never asks "how are you?" or "How are the kids?" If I interject anything about myself, she flips it around to her again.

It's crazy-making.

I've given up on any real relationship with her and struggle to know how to help her as she gets older and less able to care for herself. She REFUSES to move into a care facility...refuses to even let me visit her. So, on one hand, maybe that's my answer. I do nothing.

But I'm the only family member who still talks to her at all.

And I know it's the personality disorder talking, but that's all I've ever known of my mother my whole life.

Does she feel empathy? I'm not sure it matters what she feels if she never expresses it.

I always felt my BPDH had too much empathy. For example, if we wanted to go to a movie, he had to invite very one of his friends & go to lengths to make sure they could come, simply because he could not stand the thought of excluding anyone, because of his fear of being excluded by others. This ultimately led to problems in our relationship because it bothered me that we never went out without his friends. That said, I do relate to some of the stories here (when I have to spend time at work, he acts as if I'm slighting him, & in his more paranoid moments thinks I'm going to replace him, or at least that I enjoy not having him around).
We both took an empathy test that I scored quite low on, but his score was through the roof, especially for a male. I don't know what all of this adds up to, but to me it seems very layered, nuanced, & complicated.

Thanks for the interesting article =)

and turn your attention to helping "borderline" people?

Or, better yet, why don't you go find something else to do that has nothing to do with suffering people and leave the borderlines to fend for themselves or perhaps find someone interested in helping?

Do the right thing, in other words.

How hard is it to create a "handle", for pete's sake, and how hard is it to address your comments to a specific individual?

I can't tell who is addressing whom in this series of comments. Its just beyond paranoid to refuse to have any kind of identifier and its just rude to neglect to address your post to an individual, particularly if you disagree with them.

I wish that Psychology Today would at least assign a number to everyone posting as "Anonymous" so that I'd know that "Anonymous 33" is addressing "Anonymous 754" or something.

-Annie
Which is a "handle", by the way, and not my real name

Hi, I'm Haven. I'm the author of my own blog on BPD, except I'm actually diagnosed BPD so I write about all of these things through the view point of someone suffering.

I did a very long series on empathy and BPD. The simple fact for me, is that sometimes my empathy is inhibited, and the reasons for it are many, many, many. But just as simple a fact, it's not always inhibited, and sometimes my empathy works just find.

I'm attaching a link to my kick off article. At the end of the article are links to a lot more explanations for various situations. I hope that helps.

http://downwardspiralintothevortex.blogspot.com/2011/12/empathy-and-bord...

I've read several of your books and articles and I'm struck by the lack of empathy you have for people with BPD. Many times Ive come away with the feeling that you are seething inside over the pain someone with BPD caused you and you want everyone to hate/get away from people with BPD. I feel you show no objectivity for people with BPD. Its (maybe rightfully so) as if your trying to validate how awful people with BPD are. In my opinion that is not altogether helpful in "curing" and "understanding" BPD

As a borderline personality myself, though, nearly recovered, we do have empathy; however, sometimes our emotions and the emotions of others are so overwhelming that it makes it difficult to respond. Given the turmoil we go through, very few people understand our pain, therefore, we are also often not given the level of understanding needed to sort out our emotions. That means, when family members are not aware of the condition, and what it really means, they tend to treat us like emotionally stable individuals, and dismiss our fears and pains and render them meaningless or irrelevant. When that happens, we take internalize it and put a lot of pressure to appear more "normal". But then it becomes unbearable, especially when we're asked to take on their pain as well.
Generally speaking though, we do have a lot of capacity for empathy when not under such pressure, simply because we have intensified emotions, and experienced every emotion you can think of, so naturally, we would be able to truly understand someone else's pain and successfully help them through it. I noticed from my own experience and others with the same condition, that they become the "therapist" in their circle of friends. I happily listen to friends in trouble and offer support. But when I experience one of my turns so to speak, not many level headed people understand nor willing to share the weight,NAND understandably so.

Side note, I really found hypnotherapy to be the most effective, along with certain psychedelic. Sorry I'm rambling and not very coherent... Sleepy :)
Happy roller coaster everyone

As a borderline personality myself, though, nearly recovered, we do have empathy; however, sometimes our emotions and the emotions of others are so overwhelming that it makes it difficult to respond. Given the turmoil we go through, very few people understand our pain, therefore, we are also often not given the level of understanding needed to sort out our emotions. That means, when family members are not aware of the condition, and what it really means, they tend to treat us like emotionally stable individuals, and dismiss our fears and pains and render them meaningless or irrelevant. When that happens, we take internalize it and put a lot of pressure to appear more "normal". But then it becomes unbearable, especially when we're asked to take on their pain as well.
Generally speaking though, we do have a lot of capacity for empathy when not under such pressure, simply because we have intensified emotions, and experienced every emotion you can think of, so naturally, we would be able to truly understand someone else's pain and successfully help them through it. I noticed from my own experience and others with the same condition, that they become the "therapist" in their circle of friends. I happily listen to friends in trouble and offer support. But when I experience one of my turns so to speak, not many level headed people understand nor willing to share the weight, and understandably so.

Side note, I really found hypnotherapy to be the most effective, along with certain psychedelic. Sorry I'm rambling and not very coherent... Sleepy :)
Happy roller coaster everyone

I am sick of being misunderstood by all who seem to want to label BPD's as "no empathy, self absorbed, manipulative, half humans so run". We have problems that you just do not understand and aren't describing accurately (sorry if this statement hurts your feelings). It is very frustrating to be so misunderstood all of the time.

I am a BPD. I have too much empathy! I am always worried about hurting someone's feelings or seeing how they might feel... I overanalyze how someone might feel .I think about others and how they are feeling more than I think of myself and how I am feeling... I want people to like me and not leave me. It's just I over analyze with a negative spin! I assume the worst and therefore I lash out when I feel "abandoned"...

Do you get it? We feel too much pain (and internal shame about our core not being good enough) so we process slights (or perceived slights with a negative spin... which may appear un-empathetic.

We also are unclear about boundaries. Where we begin and you end etc... We take on your pain but tend to spin it negative towards us. But we don't do it with a preconceived thought "to get you" like a narcissist or sociopath might. Ours is reactive to your perceived abandonment or negative towards us.

I am sick of being misunderstood by all who seem to want to label BPD's as "no empathy, self absorbed, manipulative, half humans so run". We have problems that you just do not understand and aren't describing accurately (sorry if this statement hurts your feelings). It is very frustrating to be so misunderstood all of the time.

I am a BPD. I have too much empathy! I am always worried about hurting someone's feelings or seeing how they might feel... I overanalyze how someone might feel .I think about others and how they are feeling more than I think of myself and how I am feeling... I want people to like me and not leave me. It's just I over analyze with a negative spin! I assume the worst and therefore I lash out when I feel "abandoned"...

Do you get it? We feel too much pain (and internal shame about our core not being good enough) so we process slights (or perceived slights with a negative spin... which may appear un-empathetic.

We also are unclear about boundaries. Where we begin and you end etc... We take on your pain but tend to spin it negative towards us. But we don't do it with a preconceived thought "to get you" like a narcissist or sociopath might. Ours is reactive to your perceived abandonment or negative towards us.

I am a EUPD'er myself. I prefer the term EUPD (Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder) over BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), and EUPD is the term that is in use in Scandinavia, where I am.
I do believe that we have empathy. At least I do, but I am sometimes so drowned in my own emotions that I forget others.

Annie and Randi, I am sorry to hear about your traumatizing childhoods. :(
I had a very traumatizing childhood myself, with a physically abusive and mentally abusive mother who made fun of me, threatened me, hit me with hard objects, chased me around in the house, lied to me constantly, bit me etc. I (and my therapist) believe those are the reasons why I developed EUPD. No, I am not saying there is no genetics involved in it. I am just saying that people aren't born with BPD. An overly sensitive child should have a supportive, listening, encouraging parent who would allowed them to cry and show emotions. Instead of allowing me to cry, my mother punished me everytime I cried by making fun of me, hitting me with hard objects or throwing cold water at me. She also pinched my nose so hardly that I started nosebleeding.

I am receiving help and I am fully aware of what I am doing to the others in my surroundings. It's just so...... hard to control. My feelings are taking over. But I've come to the point of understanding that there is no excuse! I have made the decision that I won't have children before I overcome my rage (if at all) issues and emotional instability. It is bad for a child to grow up in such an environment and I don't think anyone deserves to grow up with an abusive parents, like I, Annie and Randi did.

I think saying that all EUPD'ers don't have empathy is incorrect. Some may not have it. EUPD'ers are not a homogenous group. There are more than 200 combinations of EUPD and two people diagnosed with EUPD can have only one trait in common.

For instance, there is a saying that all EUPD'ers are substance abusers and self-harmers. I have never tried drugs (and have no desire to do so), rarely drink alcohol (a glass of wine thrice a year perhaps?) and never self-harmed.

I am also not seeking attention. I seek to be "part of the group". To belong somewhere. To be treated as a fellow human being. I don't manipulate people. If I do so, I don't do it intentionally. I am not doubting that my behaviour can come across as attention-seeking and manipulative, but I am getting help for it. I only want the best for others and I would never want to hurt or manipulate people, especially not after being manipulated by my mother for sixteen years!

I will getting more intensive help for my EUPD, because I am tired of causing so much damage to people; especially my chronically ill father. He has always been and is supportive of me, but I see how stressed, tired and sad he becomes after my anger outbursts.
I want him to have a long, pain-free life without complications. As a person with high blood-pressure and diabetes type 2, he is in a high risk of developing heart-disease and stroke.

I seriously need help and I believe I am self-conscious to the point of me realizing what harm I am causing others.

Annie and Randi, could you at least try and see it from the EUPD'ers' perspective? :)
New studies have shown that EUPD is treatable and very much manageable, but it requires hard work and self-consciousness.

As for some EUPD'ers coming off as having no remorse or empathy. Maybe that's the easiest thing to do? Maybe they have pride issues? Maybe the truth (that they are harming other people) is too hard to live with and they make up excuses that other people are hopeless?
I believe EUPD'ers with no substance abuse or self-harm have better chances of recovery.

I've read dozens of articles of EUPD'ers being compared to Narcissists and Antisocials and I don't like it. Although I can understand it, I think it is not true (at least not in many cases).

Annie and Randi....... I am so sad to hear about your childhoods.

I am curious as to why you would want to profit off of (by writing books) and be considered an authority on BPD without obtaining any PSY D, PHD, MD, or MSW degrees?

I feel it would be more empathetic and helpful to your audience if you took the time to obtain several of these degrees before you profit off of other people's pain and suffering.

and the link to divorce lawyers on your website??? Really?

Out of the 9 criteria for BPD not one says lack of empathy. Annie You said your mother had a comorbid diagnosis maybe that's where she gets her lack of empathy. you are attributing traits of other personality disorders to BPD. manipulation isn't part of the diagnosis either and if borderlines are manipulative it is in trying to obtain care and support from others and many people are guilty of that.Out of the Borderlines that are considered manipulative in order to exploit others and who lack empathy most likely have a comorbid diagnosis of antisocial personality. In fact if they meet a certain amount of criteria it means they do have that disorder. defining borderlines with traits that clearly meets the criteria for another disorder muddies the waters. Thats why the traits are separated into different disorders to create a more accurate picture. If a borderline lacks, remorse, empathy, exploits others they clearly meat the criteria for antisocial as well and you attributing it to the borderline diagnosis does everyone a disservice. If the Psychiatric field wanted antisocial and borderline lumped together they wold of made them one disorder but they clearly felt their was a need to separate them (despite high comorbidy) and I believe they have the education and experience to make that distinction

If I understand what I've read correctly, the DSM-V (the newest edition) does
include:

"2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):

a. Empathy: Compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal hypersensitivity (i.e., prone to feel slighted or insulted); perceptions of others selectively biased toward negative attributes or vulnerabilities."

...meaning that "lack of empathy" is now a diagnostic criteria for borderline pd.

I agree with you; I think the experts in the psychiatric field know better than you and I how to classify and define mental disorders, and the fact that they now include "lack of empathy" as a bpd diagnostic criteria has corrected their earlier mistake.

I found the abstract of a research study proposing that borderline pd is the female phenotypic presentation of psychopathy, and that theory sounds very plausible to me. It will be interesting to see what further study on this produces. Here's the link:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22452756