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Lindsay Lohan is one of many celebrity women who want us to know that they go both ways. Why are girls today more likely than boys to be non-heterosexual? Read More



Seems to me that comparing
Seems to me that comparing current studies of YOUNG women with older studies of the entire female population is comparing apples and oranges. You really mean to tell me that young women during the flower child era weren't all sleeping with each other too? Sure sounds like it to hear some of them talk.
Is it "just a phase"?
This comment by Anonymous is one of several written in response to my blog which share the same underlying assumption: namely, that teenage girls and young women are more likely than older women to identify as lesbian or bisexual. Other comments below include terms such as BUG (Bisexual Until Graduation), reflecting the assumption that teenage girls and young women who identify as bisexual are just "going through a phase" and that most of those women will eventually settle down as heterosexual.
The scholarly research on this topic does not provide strong evidence in support of this assumption. On the contrary, the most careful, longitudinal studies - in which researchers keep track of the same women for many years - suggests just the opposite. For example, Professor Lisa Diamond followed a cohort of women for 10 years: she found that over those ten years, these women were more likely to ADOPT the bisexual label than they were to RELINQUISH that label. You will find the full citation for this study in Note 3, at the end of page 2 of my blog.
Which is it?
I'm a little confused now ... you original entry implied that girls are more likely to identify as lesbian/bi because their only other options are teenage boy "losers."
However, your reference to the study above suggests something different--that as girls grow older they are more likely to change their identification to bi/lesbian rather than drop it after already making such an identification.
Is this because grown men of this study's generation are losers too?
Why didn't all of these older lesbians identify as such when they were younger?
"Boys adrift" may be 30-year-old men
The "boys adrift" phenomenon - i.e. young men who prefer video games and pornography over real-world interaction - is not confined to teenage boys, nor do these teenage boys always outgrow this phenomenon when they turn 20, 25, or even 30. I suggest you read Chapter 6, "End Result: Failure to Launch", in my book Boys Adrift, where I describe the growing proportion of 20-something young men who seem to care more about video games than they care about real-world interaction with young women.
You ask "why didn't all of these older lesbians identify as such when they were younger?" Your question assumes one direction of change for women, from heterosexual to bisexual to homosexual. But Professor Diamond has documented that women also go the other way, from homosexual to bisexual. Please read Professor Diamond's articles (see my Note 3, on page 2 of my blog, for the full citations). The best answer to your question appears to be that sexual orientation may simply be more fluid and more plastic in women than it is in men. A woman who divorces a "loser" husband at the age of 26, and then discovers another woman with whom she has a genuine connection, may discover that she also has the ability to experience and enjoy sexual intimacy with another woman. If you read through the other comments, below, you will find several women who describe just such an experience. Again, please read the scholarly citations listed in my Note 3, beginning perhaps with Professor Roy Baumeister's paper.
The one thing you didn't go
The one thing you didn't go into much in your article is sexuality and the messages being sent by the media. Being a lesbian or bisexual is cool and hip. It's not hard to see that men enjoy lesbian/bisexual women in their porn and subsequently in other media. It's a fantasy for men of being with two women (if something is good, double of something is even better).
This of course reinforces to women that being a 'lesbian' or 'bisexual' is not only acceptable (and that sexuality isn't a hard and fast concept), but it's also an attractive attribute to the other sex. If a young man meets twins who are (somehow) the EXACT same in every aspect (including personality) but one twin is straight and the other bisexual, the overwhelming amount of adolescents and young-men would prefer the bisexual, due in part to the notion pornography reinforces of the threesome (an ultimate conquer for a man).
Factor in the prevalence of sex toys women have and their increasing acceptance in society (at least among young women) and the incredible advances these sex toys (specifically dildos) have undergone being bisexual or lesbian doesn't have to be very much the same as the definition. Sexual pleasure could still be derived from vaginal penetration/intercourse while intimacy is fulfilled by a friendship that blurs the line between girlfriend and girl friend.
Just some random thoughts about the matter. But mainly, I think the discrepancy in numbers/identification between the two are not actual findings in terms of sexuality, but rather a shift in cultural acceptability and a dramatic injection of sexuality (geared at men of course) in all facets of media and life.
i'm guessing it's mostly in the genes
I believe women have always had more capacity to desire intimacy with the same sex than men, it is only now with less social restrictions that these tendancies manifest themselves. My best guess comes down to mate selection: women value commitment more than men do. For the woman, any doubt in the man's sexuality is also a doubt in his commitment to her. It is an extreme turn-off for a man to be bi/gay. Bi-sexuality has thus been rapidly removed from male genes, and I saw one study where virtually no 'bisexual' man could actually get an erection from images of both men and women; it was usually only from men. It is also more difficult for a man to become a social leader, the ultimate attractive trait, while at the same time being gay/bisexual. But for a woman to be bisexual can almost be a turn-on for men, at least if done as a show for men to watch. It is a way to express her sexual nature without any possibility of her getting pregnant and thus keeping her 'available' and fertile. With these theories in mind, I think it was always going to be an uphill battle for men to have the same non-heterosexual statistics as women.
Genetics
I wonder how many of you study genetics at any length. I'm certainly no scientist but has the possibility occurred to anyone that a gene mutation attracts women to women?
Consider: When an egg is fertilized, its sex is inherently female. If something goes wrong with the Y chromosome the embryo takes on characteristics of a female (http://www.genomicseducation.ca/informationArticles/genebasics/y_files.asp referencing Nussbaum RL et al. Thompson and Thompson Genetics in Medicine. 6th ed. 2004. Saunders.).
That would mean that in theory everyone in existence was at one time a female genetically leaving 0 males available. So it is possible that such a small change in her genes could have triggered the male gene to be attracted to females.
I don't think it's genetics
I don't think it's genetics at all. Historically, there have been way more incidences of male bisexuality and homosexuality than female bisexuality and homosexuality. In countries like Afghanistan, it's still common for this pattern to exist. Also, why are there more gay men than lesbian women if it's purely genetics? I think the reason there are so many more bisexual women now is because of the advent pornography on the internet. It's no coincidence that the timing of the popularization of the internet coincides exactly with the rise of female bisexuality in my opinion.
Why is it acceptable to make
Why is it acceptable to make a hateful generalizations like "or because the guys are such losers?" or "Especially if all the guys she knows are losers."
If someone were to explain white flight by saying maybe it happens "because the blacks are such losers?" we would recognize it as racist hate, but for some reason the same hatefulness towards boys has become very common and is considered acceptable.
Why are so many boys losers - in girls eyes?
I hope that Anonymous will take a look at my second book, entitled Boys Adrift: the five factors driving the growing epidemic of unmotivated boys. If Anonymous would read my book, she or he would recognize that I am not making "hateful generalizations". A growing proportion of boys today do openly value pornography, or playing video games such as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, as much or more than they value actual interaction with the girls they know. Teenage girls tell me about going to parties where most of the boys aren't interested in talking with the girls; instead the boys are huddled around a video game console playing COD:MW2. Such boys are, from a girl's perspective, losers. The boys are losers not because they are male but because of what they are DOING (playing video games) or not doing (showing any interest in the girls).
The analogy suggested by Anonymous is misleading. Racial prejudice is based on the color of a person's skin, not on the actual experienced behavior of the individual. But in the cases I am describing (both in this blog and in my books), girls are alienated from boys because of what the boys are DOING, not because the boys are male.
Regardless of how behavior
Regardless of how behavior has changed the tone of "losers" is derogatory and unscientific.
Young men are not personally responsible for how the internet has created new challenges to adapt to or for the generally conflicted and confused guidance young people receive regarding sexuality.
To use a more direct analogy, describing the young women who have adopted bisexuality as "losers" would not be acceptable, even though it would be based on their behavior.
In your response you said boys were "losers" from the girls' perspective. I'm sure there are alot of young women who do think guys are losers but that sort of thinking about the opposite sex shouldn't be encouraged by being uncritically adopted in your essay.
It's a blog, not an essay.
It's a blog, not an essay. You must give some leeway for opinion in opinion pieces.
two blind men and an elephant
It is interesting that you accept with accuracy the descriptions of the girls -- about the guys being losers. I think that video games are not significantly helpful since they take boys out of the social arena with girls. While the games once bred "loners" on line gaming has created a less threatening environment where boys -- who feel anything but masterful -- can obtain mastery and preserve anonymity while doing it -- and bond with other boys/men -- all of whom are sharing the same experience.
Now, let's talk about the other side of the equation -- girls. The level of dress has progresses so that it is much more mature/sexual (for immature boys arousing and threatening) and has also created an ever increasing self-assessment/conscious posturing of their own maturity and own intellectual superiority.
Now you are a boy -- would you feel good walking into that meat-grinder when you can remain in your safe,warm video cave. That does not make you a loser -- you may be a good student, a good athlete and volunteer time helping disabled children. What it makes you is increasingly insecure in a "relationship game" that always required that the boys "take chances" and risk rejection.
So,culture -- male and female -- has widened the gulf between female and male perceived immaturity and created a more comfortable haven for opting out of the teen "relationship game" until maturity and confidence become more level between sexes and social strictures become less stringently enforced.
The fact that these women describe themselves as bi-sexual -- is not that troubling for me. First, data suggest that men generally are not repelled by female/female sexuality. Second, it applies that men who can function in different circumstances -- college for instance where sex roles are looser and maturity is more level and ways to demonstrate this "deep understanding" that the girls you site assign to themselves an not the loser boys, are more abundant -- seem to be sexually attractive to at least some of these women (the self-identified bi-sexual ones).
These facts may suggest that we have two problems -- each of which is causing it to become more socially difficult for young men and women. So, perhaps, one side suggesting that one side consists of losers masks and overly kind and narcissistic self assessment of the other gender. And, maybe this is causing that some intra-gender sexual exploration to become part of the female maturation process. And, given the high level of investment of parents and society in children, perhaps the delay of rampant male sexually charged pursuit of these young women who present an appearance of advanced maturity is not an altogether bad thing?
That is an excellent point.
That is an excellent point. But I think there is something else to be considered here. The way we communicate has changed since 1975. I am of the generation on the cusp of this change (born in 1980). Socializing is not just "talking to girls at parties" anymore. Social media like facebook, AIM, myspace, and even cellular phones. Even adults don't meet out there anymore. A vast majority are doing internet dating who are regular schmoes. When I was a teen we didn't have internet and cellular phones like we do now. Just because people are not "talking" doesn't mean they are not "talking digitally."
We can debate until we are blue in the face whether that is good or bad. Personally I think boys are doing just fine. It is the prerogative of every previous generation to claim that something "wrong," or "horrible," is happening to "kids today."
My final thought is on this "porn" issue. Not to be crass but either they are getting off to porn or having sex.
Parents need to talk more actively with their children about sex and porn. This puritanical attitude that parents have about it is just ludicrous. Sex is everywhere. Accept it. The only way to help young boys AND GIRLS is to get off the denial train and start a dialog about all these issues in the open.
On the flip side
I understand where you're coming from with a girls perspective of boys playing video games being losers.
What do you think of the growing phenomena of "geek" being "hip"? Do you suppose that such a trend would force more girls into eachother's arms? Or do you think that we'll see an increase of self proclaimed "geek girls"?
In the end, the first group would have fewer children and the latter group will be able to continue their line. Is this simply evolution in action?
loser boys, etc...
In most of the animal kingdom females only procreate with roughly 2% of all males in their herd (or pride, or flock, or gaggle, etc.). The most dominant males. The rest just take up space. They're losers. Female humans had to adapt away from this strategy however because the survival rate of our children was, unlike most animals, greatly dependent on male investment. Though we're not living in the pleistocene era on the plains of Africa currently, women still have that drive for male investment and commitment. However, there is another female drive to pass on the genes of the most dominant male, a winner. This is why (according to some studies) roughly 10-15% of all fathers on the planet are raising another man's child. Women want the genes AND the commitment. If they can't get both from the same guy, so be it.
The reason girls think most guys are losers is most of us are. All we have to offer is commitment unless we're part of that top 2%. Maybe these girls are unconsciously thinking "I'm young, I have time to find Prince Charming--why waste time on a potential pregnancy with a loser?" And if bi-sexuality is offered up as a socially acceptable alternative, then why not?
After all, women have much more to lose from an ill-timed pregnancy than do men.
"After all, women have much
"After all, women have much more to lose from an ill-timed pregnancy than do men."
good perspective
I am one who thinks that just about everyone has the capacity to be sexually aroused and/or love a person of the same sex. the heterosexual social norm has simply been constructed over time. women in our society have a lot more flexibility as to how they wish to express their sexuality, as it is not the dominant sexuality. male sexuality is dominant, and is henceforth subjected to greater scrutiny. for a male to stray from the social norm places him in a position of greater ostracism. after all, it is mostly only guys who call each other "faggot", even though the term applies to homosexuals across the board. there are so many social and biological factors in mate selection....it is quite messy. why seek an emotional bond with someone who can impregnate you when you can establish an equally solid bond with someone who can't? sounds practical enough.
the author ought to take your pregnancy perspective into consideration as a con/pro to heterosexual dating. there are many other perspectives to be explored, and yours was not mentioned at all in the original text. pregnancy is guaranteed to have a lifetime of consequences for a woman. why wouldn't it be taken into consideration when choosing a mate?
Concerns about pregnancy does
Concerns about pregnancy does come into play when selecting a mate. However, that being the case, the incidence of bisexuality should be down if that pregnancy were a major concern because prophylactics and abortion have become much more common within the last few decades. Hence, it's reasonable to conclude that pregnancy is not a driving force behind the rise in female bisexuality.
Dude, chill out.
I read the use of the word "losers" as both humorous and a narrative convention to emphasize the point of the article. It didn't seem negligent, but poignant.
Personally I believe this is
Personally I believe this is largely the result of sexism. If a woman wants to explore that is acceptable because she wants to do something that is socially seen as more 'masculine' and that is seen as a good thing. But if a young boy wanted to explore his sexuality with another male that is considered a 'feminine' thing and that is discouraged. So women are given permission to explore their sexuality when they are young and so many YOUNG women identify as lesbian or bi. This does not mean they form a stable identity as a queer person though.
I am a masters student studying attitudes towards LGBT people and I would also like to add that I have not seen any real data to support the claim that more women (as a whole group) are identifying as lesbian or bi. I have seen this result when the definition changes of what constitutes bi or lesbian, when comparing two studies, but never when the same methodology is used.
I have seen studies that
I have seen studies that suggest that men CAN'T be bi, while women CAN be bi. Also, are you attracted to men that have dated other men before? No? then you've got yourself a reason.
I only know one researcher
I only know one researcher who claims to have proven women can be bi but men can't. If you are talking about Bailey he only measures physical arousal by blood flow which is not the only component of sexuality. Also he completely ignores the socialization of the sexes and how they are taught to express affection. And according to his study women are all bi to a large extent and men are all either gay or straight.
I'm interested in hearing
I'm interested in hearing female response to the question though -- would you find a bi-sexual man attractive? Would you want to marry a man that has had sex with another man?
Answer
I've dated two bisexual men (that I'm aware of). I'm a bisexual woman. I idea isn't a turn on, like it can be for men, but not necessarily a turn off. As for the studies that say men can't be bi, they are flawed. Men are not very open to discussing it, but will with an openly bi woman. Men are just as likely to be bi as women.
I have found bisexual men
I have found bisexual men attractive (and I assume I will continue to).
(I am not a huge fan of marriage in general but) yes, I would marry a man that has sex with another man.
It is not a turn off for me at all.
This is coming from another bisexual female (somewhat androgynous).
Another Spin on the Term "Loser"
I've not heard of any other examples in the animal kingdom whereby males (or females for that matter) actively engage in activities (much less spend all of their time) which reduce their chances of reproducing. From an evolutionary perspective, this leads to losing. Straight Boys voluntarily engaging in activities that girls find unattractive, will necessarily reduce their chances of passing their genes or behaviors on to future generations because they will have difficulty finding partners. Women can have and raise children without a consistent male presence. Men who cannot persuade a woman to have their child and are not seen as fit to raise some else's- therefore will have a tough time passing along a great deal of themselves to future generations.
Animal Kingdom Examples
Check out Bruce Bagemihl's book Biological Exuberance. It has about 300 examples in Mammals and Birds of alternate sexual behavior, mostly homosexual behavior. Also, consider the Bonobo.
I think you are right
Look for example at the current discussion of romance novels vs. pornography on Salon's Broadsheet. Porn teaches boys to get off on the objectification, humiliation and the pain of their female sexual partners. Girls don't actually enjoy these things. With a female lover, they can find tenderness, communion, emotional and intellectual intimacy - experiences for which suitable male partners are growing scarce.
Romance Novels
I disagree with you benign assessment of "romance novels". They seem to encourage a perception that woman can "remain safe" waiting for the virtuous (sometimes) but compelling pirate or whatever character is in current vogue to overwhelm them -- providing them the ability to consent to sexuality without any personal "investment" in the decision itself. The thesis of these novels actually is part of a specific genre of "erotica" -- the term pornography is pejorative and over-used in my view -- non-consent/reluctance (romance novels falling at least in the "reluctance" segment of that genre).
As far as grooming issues stemming from pornography -- both young men and young women have grooming issues -- and preferences.
Commonly marketed visual hard-core pornography clearly does not enhance relationship effectiveness -- but it is disingenuous to endow the "romance novel" with benign benediction.
I see sexuality as becoming more accepted -- but I also see abdication of the arena of "popular communication of sexuality to teens" by increasingly unrealistic and irresponsible adults as being part of the reason that what is communicated often is so unsuitable.
If sexual awareness is part of teen growth, maybe someone should "bring to market" images (visual and written) that are edgy enough to be relevant to teens without the degradation and objectification that is associated with "pornography".
in my experience a lot of
in my experience a lot of self-confident girls DO enjoy rougher sex.