Real Men Don't Write Blogs

Exploring love, marriage, and other difficulties.

Boys and Young Men: A New Cause for Liberals

My first two posts were humorous, but this one is not. It’s about a problem that still hasn’t hit a tipping point, even though the data made it pretty obvious nearly two decades ago. It involves a huge segment of our population: Young males. Read More

I really appreciate...

I really appreciate your loyalty to the truth; therefore: Maybe you should stop worrying about being a "liberal" and start worrying about being real. :0 As a 25 year old methadone program patron/never had a job/still lives at home/male, I see the world going obsessed with going crazy and lack of being real as a source of disillusion that fuels the young male failure.

I have heard it before

So, there is a problem, according to this article. Men and boys don't achieve, boys fall through the cracks in school, lacking ambition etc.
Really? I am female, got a degree and still make less than my current husband (he does not have a degree) and we work in similar fields. I am also bilingual and have more diverse work experience.
My point is, there is a salary gap here in the U.S. and most other countries. There is still a glass ceiling. Most wealth is still controlled by men, not women.
Why do boys fail to do well in school? Because they can. Because they know that, at the end of the day, no matter how well women prepare themselves and how much they achieve, they (the men) still run the show.
By the way, I am a feminist and the mother of a boy. I see his lack of interest in school every day, and I don't see this as a "national tragedy" of sorts. The real tragedy is that we women still don't make as much money as the men for doing the same job. The real tragedy is that women still lose their jobs for getting pregnant. The real tragedy is that women still get charged more for health care.
Boys goofing off at school and not graduating? Not really, in my opinion. They (and I include my kid) are just lazy.

careful

It isn't that "they" are just lazy. Your kid might be lazy, but I wouldn't know. To argue that a whole demographic is on average lazy is nonsensical in the context of the rest of your argument. You are arguing that they lack the incentive (or are given a disincentive) to work hard given their other privileges. You move from an implication that boys are acting rationally to one that they have a character deficiency. You can't have it both ways.

This really is important. It doesn't do us any good to conflate individual vice with a social phenomenon. Conflating the two has caused all kinds of problems in stereotyping women.

What I am interested in are those things which might cause boys to not work hard in school. I don't believe that boys understand explicitly that they will be okay because they are males. What are the manifestations of that in our culture that broadcast that message?

So, ALL boys are lazy? Just

So, ALL boys are lazy? Just because your son is (or so you think)? If that's not a sexist attitude, I don't know what is. I pity your son having such a sexist mother.

Lazy young men(hah on MEN)

When I se a MAN that is 26 and living offf his dad and has a colege degree and sit's around, i say lazy and that is how it is, and yes, they all want to "work" (they do not know the MEANING OF WORK!i SAY THEY SHOULD ALL WORK AT AGE 13 MOWING THE LAWN AND SHUT OFF THE PC, WE AS WOMEN WORK HADRER MANUALLY THEN MOST men LET ALONE THESE SO CALLED YOUNG men!!!

typical

ah the old "women still earn less so lets forget boys and keep focusing on girls" that line never gets old from you feminists and as for the "wage gap" why dont you read this

http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Repo...

if link doesnt come up google "consad gender wage gap"

now according to this consad report prepared for the DEPT OF LABOR girls dont get paid as much because they dont focus on thier career and work their a$$ off like men do, and that debunks the "glass ceiling" as well because if women were to put their careers first their is no reason why they couldnt succeed especially with all of the affirmitive action benefits they get:)

please complain about something else their is no reason why we should leave boys behind the fact that feminists seem to be the only group oppossing helping boys in school should tell any person with a brain what kind of people they are.

Dear "typical"

I work my a$$ off and I have focused on my career. I have been assigned more senior projects than two my male coworkers and get verbal appreciation...but I am not paid as well.

Affirmative action benefits? What planet are you on? I haven't seen any. Who do you know that is directly receiving any? I am a caucasian female and have been appalled by younger (taller) men with no experience getting business perks from male managers. A simple example... I wasn't invited to the mgrs golf game, despite the fact that they know I play and he's a beginner.

Very funny... you start a comment and then add a trite male phrase onto it is pretty funny... "that line never gets old from you feminists"

I'm not a feminist. I'm sick of people trying to label me as a feminist. But I am sick of this non-existent ceiling I keep smacking my head on.

You said it...

I get "accused" of being a feminist (perjorative word--funny), too, any time I point out this kind of thing or mention it in conversation. And I'm not, because to me that means taking political action and I'm not into politics.

But sexism and discrimination in the workplace are still so rampant and ubiquitous that guys either don't see it or feel called upon to justify it in some lame way (a vague, uninformed reference to biology being the most popular justification). It would just be too much for them to bear to get the impact of how destructive their male domination games are to women, first and foremost, to children, and to non-alpha males. In short,to society at large. They might talk a good line (like the article writer, who does declare himself a feminist, or perhaps a former feminist), but at the end of the day a guy being a feminist means "I COULD be domineering and take whatever I want and threaten you into subservience, but I'm not like OTHER GUYS--I'm a GOOD GUY! So I'll LET you [fill in the blank]." What it isn't about is seeing women as competent, intelligent, capable of leadership, and autonomous. It isn't about including women as equals, meaning equal access to the perqs. But at the first whiff of exclusion of males (boys aren't performing as well as girls!! they have been underperforming girls for over a decade!)--well, heavens. Call out the National Guard.

Men do inhabit another planet. I don't mean that in a good way.

If Sexism Against Men Exists, but most thought they deserved it?

'at the end of the day a guy being a feminist means "I COULD be domineering and take whatever I want and threaten you into subservience"'

You don't even seem to like the men who go out of their way to look out for the interests of women, the feminist men (if this is how much respect she reserves for feminist men, I'd hate to know how she thinks about non-feminist men).

All evidence of women's oppression is valid, understated and the fault of males.

All evidence of men oppressions is the fault of the males, overstated and invalid since ...

men = "bad", women = "good"

again typical

"But sexism and discrimination in the workplace are still so rampant and ubiquitous that guys either don't see it or feel called upon to justify it in some lame way (a vague, uninformed reference to biology being the most popular justification)."

why dont you actually read the report I posted (a report prepared for the DEPT OF LABOR) do you call that vague and uninformed reference, instead of going down the "I am not paid the same it must mean discrimination" route women go because they want to feel like the victims. Those poor women:(

http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Repo...

I know your a feminist and therefore deny evidence that would debunk any "discrimination" but why dont for once educate yourself so you can stop using this made up "discrimination" to try and justify not helping boys in school like you feminist always try and do.

dear amused

dear Amused you can keep you sob story to yourself their is absoulutely no reason women cant get ahead in this country.

I work my a$$ off and I have focused on my career. I have been assigned more senior projects than two my male coworkers and get verbal appreciation...but I am not paid as well.

assuming thats true(I have my doubts) then you can cry discrimination and have media coverage, a mess of lawyers willing to take your case and probably intimidate the company to pay you "fairly", this is to say your not crying out for attention and trying to divert the argument(like the poor girl I was commenting to) away from the original article (a typical feminist trait) which is to help boys in school(and im assuming you are against that) again
if you actually read the report I posted you will know why the poor girls are not paid the same or why they cant get promotions but yea keep hitting your head on that made up ceiling of yours because as long as you do their is a perfect(sarcasm intended) reason not to help boys in school:)

The Feminist Victomolgy

I see you subscribe to the Feminist as Victim philosophy and it may well be tragic you seem to care more that you don't have the ambition to achieve a higher status than your son's problems,. I think it is telling you would accuse boys, as a gender, of being lazy. Its not so and in some school areas these boys don't see much of a male teacher in their first 14 years of education.

We do have a boy crisis and there are lots of reasons. Your comments are one of them and single moms are another. In the USA sole physical custody is given to mom in 86% of cases, Canada 90% and the UK 93%.

Liberals and the left just don't get it.

I call BS on that. Almost

I call BS on that. Almost everyone I know has joint custody. If you are referring to joint custody with primary residence/custodial parent being mom call it that. That is what most people have.

Few people have joint physical custody, where the kid's physical residence is 50% at each residence. The main reason for this is that most people are not selfish bags of crap when it comes to their kids. They realize that moving back and forth between physical residences is NOT FUN and is crazy making for a small child. It would be tough on an adult. In fact there are adults that move in and out of a house where the children stay put. This seems fair.

Along those lines there are studies done especially with infants that show that they actually NEVER RECOVER after being moved back and forth between residences. They will never be as secure as an infant that was allowed to sleep in the same place every night. If you think about it it just is common sense.

Sole custody is when one parent has custody AND also makes ALL legal decisions. In those situation the noncustodial parent has visitation but does not make final decisions, like where will the child go to school. Most the time this happens when one parent is not a capable parent.

Sole custody is also what usually happens in cases where there is spousal abuse with the abused person getting sole custody and the abuser getting visitation. This genrally results in the abusive spouse terrorizing the custodial parent by abusing the children during visitations ( verbally emotionally, leaving the child unattended, not giving them meds, not using car seats etc). Thank-you family court.

"Really? I am female, got a

"Really? I am female, got a degree and still make less than my current husband (he does not have a degree) and we work in similar fields. I am also bilingual and have more diverse work experience."

On average young women outearns the average young man today, considerably. That's the trend going forward. Your little anecdote means nothing in the wider scheme of things.

Me Thinks She Doth Protest Too Much

MLH: Guessing your kid is a boy, perhaps your man-hating succeeded in that you didn't allow him to become a man, and that is why he is so lazy.

“Really? I am female, got a

“Really? I am female, got a degree and still make less than my current husband (he does not have a degree) and we work in similar fields. I am also bilingual and have more diverse work experience.”
Some very important factors here that you might want to consider:
How many hours a week does he put in at work compared to you/
How much higher did he negotiate salary wise compared to you?
Did he leave the workplace to bear and raise small children? Di d you do these things? Make no mistake, these are choices that women have that men do not have. The wage gap is simply a reflection of the fact that women still require that a man go off to work and provide for the household and most women would never even consider being the primary bread winner.

“My point is, there is a salary gap here in the U.S. and most other countries. There is still a glass ceiling.”

Glass ceiling? What about the glass basement? How many women do you see digging ditches on the side of the road, collecting trash, and doing extremely dangerous work like mining and electrical line work? 95% of all workplace deaths are male. Would you propose a lottery that randomly selects a female subject of sacrifice every time a man dies at work so we could kill her too?

“Most wealth is still controlled by men, not women.”

This is as patently absurd as it is false. 75% of all the worlds wealth is controlled by women-NOT MEN. Roughly 80% of all purchasing decisions are made by women-NOT MEN. Let me see if I can explain this to you; men go to work, work longer hours, take greater financial and PHYSICAL risks and then give their hard earned money to women who both save and spend it. Understand?

“Why do boys fail to do well in school? Because they can. Because they know that, at the end of the day, no matter how well women prepare themselves and how much they achieve, they (the men) still run the show.”

80% of homeless are men
80% of all suicides are men
Men die on average 7 years earlier than women
There are eight national level agencies for women’s health and none for men. Not two months ago Obama was making cuts in the budget and initially did not include regular annual increases in the budget for women’s health care. These state funded advocacy groups (and that is what they are) raised hell and they got what they wanted and more.
Just who runs the show here?

“By the way, I am a feminist and the mother of a boy.”

Poor kid!

“I see his lack of interest in school every day, and I don't see this as a "national tragedy" of sorts.”

I worked in Higher Education for years and I mean to tell you something- There is a war going on against boys in our education system from primary school to the doctorate level and I am not exaggerating when I say that. I have seen it with my own two eyes. The curriculum is designed SPECIFICALLY to make boys disengaged. Administratively and financially male students are not supported and are in fact discriminated against in an extremely cynical way. I could give you many examples of this but the best thing is to watch these two Youtube videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRRRwhcqE1E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp-4-13M4cU&feature=related

As a matter of fact watch all of the manwomanmyth videos on there you might learn something.

“The real tragedy is that women still lose their jobs for getting pregnant.”

I have never heard of a women getting fired for being pregnant. As a matter of fact companies pay women to get pregnant. It’s called paid maternity leave and they are guaranteed by law to have their jobs when they get back.

“The real tragedy is that women still get charged more for health care.”

Women consume more health care.

Boys goofing off at school and not graduating? Not really, in my opinion. They (and I include my kid) are just lazy.

You are a reprehensible bigot and I feel sorry for your son. I think about kids like him when I think about the 80% male share of the suicides.

Dear "rohara"

rohara: "How many hours a week does he put in at work compared to you, etc."

Could you really be more condescending to that woman? Of course she's looking at comparable variables. I have the same problem. My husband works less hours. He thinks it's hilarious. My husband and I would be THRILLED if I made more money than him.

rohara: "I have never heard of a women getting fired for being pregnant. As a matter of fact companies pay women to get pregnant. It’s called paid maternity leave and they are guaranteed by law to have their jobs when they get back."

a) I know 3 women in the past TWO YEARS who have been let go as a result of getting pregnant. Despite their attempts to come back full time, their workload had been moved to other departments and dispersed. No woman with a new child has the energy to sue. They just get on with their lives and find a new job. The only woman I know who went back to work successfully was lucky enough to have a husband willing to go on paternity leave.

b) Pay women to get pregnant??? You must work at a great company because none of the last four companies I have worked for have offered paid maternity leave. The EI benefits are not enough to cover the bills or pay for someone to look after the kid if you need to go back to work.

c) Also, I have heard managers talk about the careful questions they ask prospective employees - they're trying not to hire a woman just in case she MIGHT get pregnant in the next few years. Heaven forbid if you are a newlywed female trying to find a new job but are physically unable to have kids!

“The real tragedy is that women still get charged more for health care.”
rohara:"Women consume more health care."

My direct experience with friends and family in a large age range is that the males are using up more healthcare for all kinds of reasons, many of which are due to non-work related. Many issues are preventative and are sadly due to a lack of self-care. Obviously both sides have many justified unavoidable health care needs. But please remember that one of the main reasons women consume more healthcare is because they have to carry the baby that benefits all the family. I asked my husband if he wouldn't mind having the baby... but he declined. I haven't found a way to get out of it yet... and I'm certainly not looking forward to all the bloody appointments it will require.

Young Men Pay More for Car Insurance (& Feminists Dont Complain)

“The real tragedy is that women still get charged more for health care.”

And we men should be concerned about that?

When I was a young boy, I got my license later than my sisters cuz, I had to pay more for auto insurance since young boys get into more accidents (I never saw a feminist rally for me to pay 'equal' auto insurance rates).

Now that I am older, I am supposed to get upset that a women have to pay more for health insurance? Is it cuz they are not careful and go to the doctor more frequently than necessary?

If insurance rates should be 'equal' for women, I hope they will made 'equal' for men, too, not just 'equal' for women.

Hopeful

While you mention some issues that need to be addressed, like most people who are pro-female on any subject, you failed to make a useful contribution to this discussion.

I entitled the subject hopeful due to the fact that i am hopeful your son finds someone in life to guide and motivate him. I have both a son and daughter and can tell you one thing is true - boys need attention as well. Being ignored is is the greatest reason for the behavior of America's sons. They need to be pushed the same way girls are pushed. Maybe we should motivate our boys by saying "You need good grades and an education to prevent female dominance". I guarantee that will motivate them. You will say that is wrong but it is no more wrong than telling girls "Get an education so you don't need a man." Enough seeds of divisiveness have sewn by chauvinist and FEMINIST. Stop perpetuating it.

Instead of complaining, teach and motivate your son. This way, he can make wages and costs fair should he rise to a position of influence.

You must be a troll or

You must be a troll or incredibly ignorant.

Here's your new female health facts:
http://www.wlp.givingto.vt.edu/wealth/index.html

Control of wealth

MLH - In the US it's women who are the major (non-institional)
stock holders compared with men.
Because men die younger than women.
Plenty of rich old widows with fortunes tied up in the stock exchange.
In cohorts of 10,000 men and 10,000 women - how many men have the psychological attributes to be a Madoff, or Gates or the boss of Morgan Stanley? Far more than in the female cohort because quite simply
males diverge from the mean far more than females.
Almost any attribute gives a different, wider Bell curve for men compared with women. That's why there are proportionately more male psychopaths than female ones.
Any demographer/statistician will confirm this piece of intuitive common sense - but it's not politically correct to make much of this, is it?

Confirmed

Most wealth is not controlled by men, but by women. Women make up 85% of the discretionary consumer spending in the economy.

The product makers know this, the advertisers know this, and the TV producers know this, which is why the mainstream networks from early AM through primetime put on shows aimed at women, advertising products women buy. There is no male version of The Today Show, or The View, or Regis, or Rachel Ray, or Oprah, or Entertainment Tonight, or Grey's Anatomy, or Desperate Housewives, or Dancing With the Stars, or even Suzie Orman (for the PBS crowd)... etc, etc, etc.

Remember, the power of money is in its spending, not in its earning. She who pays the piper controls the song.

Thus, women's spending totally dominates the shape our popular culture takes. When you go to any mall it's women shopping because there's little there men want to buy. One study found space in department stores devoted to women's products was seven times the space devoted to products for men, and the former is more prominently displayed near the entrance and on the main floor, like the cosmetics and jewelry counters. Yes, this is true even at WalMart, where these are right at the entrance, while the paint, tools, and motor oil are in the far back corner of the bus.

So far as accumulated wealth goes, it's well known that women outlive men. As a result there are a lot of wealthy widows out there. 90% of the women billionaires on the planet inherited their wealth from fathers, husbands, or family businesses. (Sorry, no readily available data on how many do it via divorce...) The same trend shows up at less lofty levels. One study in the UK by Datamonitor showed that wealthy Britons, categorized as having £200,000 or more in instantly accessible cash, stood at about 750,000; almost 393,000 were women, against only 355,000 men. I'm sure the trend is similar in the US. 80% of the homeless are men.

One could go on practically indefinitely in this vein. The data just don't support the contention that men have all the power and control everything.

Effective As always...

Intelligently informed, the alien's information is interestingly insightful, yet only ignored.

No so fast

Does this discretionary spending include spending on porn, prostitutes and other so-called sexual entertainment? Men greatly outspend women on all of those. Porn alone represents billions of dollars of male spending power.

Prostituted slaves make up a small percentage of worldwide slaves but they represent a large chunk of profits made from slavery overall (I think the number cited was something like 42% of slavery profits comes from coerced sexual labor).

Men are over-represented on both ends of that "business" transaction, i.e., most people purchasing forced sexual labor are men and most people profiting off it are men as well. But you're right that you won't see that on Oprah even though porn and forced prostitution represent billions of dollars of male spending power.

Furthermore for women, much of discretionary spending comes back to "sex" as well, as women spend billions on make-up and beautification. But count me in for the return of hairy legs and no make-up.

On the other hand non-discretionary spending shows some gendered patterns as well in some parts of the world:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/opinion/23kristof.html?scp=9&sq=povert...

Because there’s mounting evidence that mothers are more likely than fathers to spend money educating their kids, one solution is to give women more control over purse strings and more legal title to assets. Some aid groups and U.N. agencies are working on that.

I do agree with the spirit of your piece otherwise, such as the dire need to address male homelessness and to increase male life spans and overall health. I just don't think your wealth data is telling the whole story about spending and control of wealth.

Results provided on HSLDAs page show how to end the inequailty.

Firstly, a book is not going to help much. It isn't going to reach out across news channels, spawn movies, and create mass civil rights demonstrations. To create mass change you need one of the latter.

Peter Gray's blog describes self-directed learning, and he prefers democratic schools. HSLDA protects the rights of home schoolers who comprise 7.5% of all children in a household with two parents, with one parent is in the workforce, (page 4).
(http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2009/pdf/6_2009.pdf)

It is my hunch that when schools crush the freedom of boys, it is more detrimental to them than it is for girls, perhaps because they need to run around a lot?

Results provided on HSLDAs page show a system that operates without enormous inequality. http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/ray1997/09.asp

It has also been shown home-schoolers are happier than the general populace.
http://www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/HomeschoolingGrowsUp.pdf

Incidentally, if you are willing to look at facts without political correctness, you may wish to see this particular web page, which shows the most important problem of our time, a much more important problem for the USA than university entrance rates.

This particular webpage

I think you've got some great

I think you've got some great points here, though I feel that our increasingly failing education system is more to blame than anything else.

I was taught all throughout my childhood that I had to study hard and make good grades if I wanted to compete with men. That because I was a girl, I would have to work twice as hard to even attempt to be on even ground with men.

I hated school, as someone with an artistic mind, school was way too structured to fit with my personality. However, my parents rode my ass and made sure that I studied and got good grades. So, why aren't parents pushing their boys to do well?

I think MLH has a point that it may be because they don't feel they have to. But I don't think that's a problem with the boys as MLH does, I think it's more a problem with the parents.

Something I saw with my own parents was that the pushed me a lot harder than they did my brother. He got to slack off while I didn't. I think that the parents of males, particularly white males, feel that they have ample opportunities so they don't need to be pushed as hard.

But the bottom line is that we need an educational overhaul in this country soon if we're going to keep our children (of all genders) on par with our past educational expectations.

I think two of the main things we need are for teachers to make a livable wage and for schools to be better funded so that they actually have the ability to teach kids, and for parents to become more involved in their children's lives and teach them valuable lessons at home as well.

yes, I don't think boys are necessarily "pushed" to do well

Glad you liked some of the points I've made.
You mention that your parents pushed you harder than they did your brother. I believe that part of the problem with young males today is that they are not especially pushed at home. I think that this may, in part, be a reaction -- from fathers at least -- to how hard they themselves were pushed growing up. I, and several other fathers I know, felt overly pressured by our dads to do well in school (at a cost to some of our other interests, perhaps). So we decided not to do the same with our sons (I know this was the case for me).
No clear answer here, since the kind of pressure dads of my father's generation put on their sons wasn't necessarily the absolutely best thing for us; but just saying to our sons -- even if not literally -- don't worry, just do what you want to do, may not be the best thing either.
Maybe we need something in between.

Pointless fence-sitting.

Pointless fence-sitting.

"But the bottom line is that

"But the bottom line is that we need an educational overhaul in this country soon if we're going to keep our children (of all genders) on par with our past educational expectations."

There's no such thing as "genders" - that is a made-up feminist word. The word you are looking for is "sexes".

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Mark Sherman, Ph.D., is a psychologist and humor writer.

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