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When a daily school message rebuffs Mom and Dad and raises questions about patriotism. Read More
I dont know unless a child is
I dont know unless a child is forced to hear about religious teachings on a regular basis in school I dont see what the big deal is. Im resentful about many things but I dont try to make a federal issue about it. When your in the minority those are things you have to deal with. Now if in fact her school was teaching about god and attacking those who do not, thats a different story.
Not a religious teaching?
I think the parents would disagree with your claim that this is not a specific religious teaching. The "teaching" (on a daily basis) is that the nation is under God. It may seem "generic" to many, but it's really not.
"Now if in fact her school
"Now if in fact her school was teaching about god..."
The school IS teaching about God. Every single day. Think about it. They are saying that God exists and has dominion over the country. That's a religious teaching.
Teaching other religions
Yes, but they also spend time teaching about all the other 'religions'.
what? no they most certainly
what? no they most certainly do not!
almost no schools even mention religion, let alone "teach" about them.
Yes they do. They are
Yes they do. They are required by LAW to teach of other religions if they teach of Christianity. That doesn't mean there has to be a specific class about it. They've already removed that from schools before because of the minority of people in America who do not believe in a higher power.
Sorry, if the kids don't want to be "singled out" by their peers by sitting out for the pledge, they have to conform! What other option do they have? If you don't like something, then don't do it. Those are the choices, and life isn't fair! In the real world, you aren't as accepted by others if you don't believe in God and make a specific point about being agnostic or atheist. It's just how it is. Life is all about choice.
Yes they do. They are
Yes they do. They are required by LAW to teach of other religions if they teach of Christianity. That doesn't mean there has to be a specific class about it. They've already removed that from schools before because of the minority of people in America who do not believe in a higher power.
Sorry, if the kids don't want to be "singled out" by their peers by sitting out for the pledge, they have to conform! What other option do they have? If you don't like something, then don't do it. Those are the choices, and life isn't fair! In the real world, you aren't as accepted by others if you don't believe in God and make a specific point about being agnostic or atheist. It's just how it is. Life is all about choice.
saying one nation under god
saying one nation under god is not an attack on religious freedom. Saying one nation under god isnt the same as saying atheists are evil. If you dont like what a school is doing then move them to a different school, or homeschool them like many christians do because they too think public school is evil. Your child will question many things in their life compared to what you have said to them. Get used to it.
"If you dont like what a
"If you dont like what a school is doing then move them to a different school, or homeschool them"
What an intolerant position? If you don't like us shoving religion down your kid's throat, you should take your kid out of school. Why? Why not just stop violating the constitution? It seems simpler to me. You put the pledge back to the way it was originally, remove two words and avoid sending children to different schools or home schools. Seems like common sense, doesn't it?
*IF* the two words in the pledge *are* educational, then the state is teaching religion.
If the two words are NOT educational, then why are they being stated in a school at all?
A "nation under god" is a
A "nation under god" is a nation divided, where the non-believers aren't viewed as proper citizens even by one of your own presidents.
If the country endorses a particular religion then they are limiting religious freedom, of its people, claiming they are not as good as the ones who follow the state religion.
You would sing a different tune if the religion was not your own or one less blendable with the culture you are comfortable with
The inconsequentiality of "under God".
If the words are harmless and can just be skipped over then why not rotate the various deities so that everyone gets equal time. One day they can say "under Allah", the next "under Satan" or "under Kali" or "under Buddha" or whatever. If your kid doesn't want to say it they can go stand quietly in the hall or just not say that part of the pledge. Maybe they could go even further and go by denomination and individual church. After all, any real Baptist knows that most Methodists aren't pious enough to get into heaven and the Catholics are idolators who are sure to burn. Surely they aren't talking about the same god when they say "under God".
"Anyone in the room not a member of the First Church of Christ? Ok, you kids can all go stand in the hall while we say the pledge. Go on, now...hurry... And be quiet while you're out there and no fighting with the kid who prays to Odin. I know he starts it but, for Pete's sake he's just trying to get to his version of heaven..."
I think the fact that kids
I think the fact that kids have to stand and recite this pledge, period, is a little creepy...
Exactly
Why do we insist on brainwashing our children?
Why is a child who can't enter into a legal contract, defacto forced to recite AN OATH of allegiance every morning?
I think I said the pledge of allegiance all of a few dozen times during school before I stopped speaking. It was so meaningless.
The fact that people DO NOT see parallels between this and the morning salutes of the Hitler youth infuriates me.
Yes, it should make you feel
Yes, it should make you feel uneasy. It's because our nation was founded on God & religious freedom. BTW I'm one of those real Baptists ;) God is for your free-choice. And all He wants you do is to understand that He loves you! After all, He did send His Son to die for us all.... You don't have to be 'pious' to get to heaven.
Its not 'teaching' religion. We can't change somebodies 'religion' unless they want to.
People came to America to
People came to America to escape religious oppression from King George III who claimed power by divine right from the creator. The ONLY reason "creator" is mentioned in the Declaration of Independance was to give the middle finger to King George III by removing any notion that his self-proclaimed "divine right" had any significance what-so-ever.
We are a secular nation with the freedom of and FROM religion.
Really?
If our constitution was founded on God, why is it that our constitution does not mention God? And in particular, why does it not mention God when nearly EVERY nation in the world at the time, explicitly referenced gods in their charter documents?
Sort of speaks for forming a country w/o a specific god eh?
Doesn't exist
How can god love me. "He" doesn't exist?
Wow, two things: 1) Maybe
Wow, two things:
1) Maybe it's just my browser, but holy crap does the author not know what a paragraph break is? Jeez, talk about a wall of text
2) A lot of people commenting things like "just don't do it" or "just take your kids out" didn't even read the article. It discusses why this isn't good enough.
FYI
As to #1, that was a computer glitch. Problem is solved.
Holy wall of text! Try using
Holy wall of text!
Try using the enter key and create some paragraphs next time...
FYI
That was a temporary glitch in the system. Problem solved/
The First Amendment of the
The First Amendment of the United States Constitution States: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
The current federal law on the books: "United States Code, title 4, chapter 1, § 4: Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery" states the following:
"The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: “I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”, should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute."
The 1954 federal amendment to add "Under God" to the Pledge is a BLATANT VIOLATION of the Constitution because it is a law that establishes religion.
Dishonest people will say that the generic singular term "god" is all inclusive, when in fact it only covers 3 religions: Judiasm, Christianity, Islam.
- Hinduism: Multiple gods and goddesses (plural)
- Buddism: no gods
- Wiccan: many variations ranging from multiple gods to no gods
- etc etc etc etc
- And last but not least, those individuals who do not subscribe to any religion: no gods
Not only is "Under God" NOT constitutional, it is NOT all inclusive. It is divisive at its very core.
Pledge of Allegiance
I recommend she do what I did in school, because of Quakers don't believe in oaths, which is what the "pledge of allegiance" really is. I stand politely and quietly. until it is over.
Pledge of Allegiance
I recommend she do what I did in school, because of Quakers don't believe in oaths, which is what the "pledge of allegiance" really is. I stand politely and quietly. until it is over.
You will have to have 'the talk'
We explained to our children that the majority of people cannot fathom or tolerate the thought that we are alone, that there is no life after death, and that there are no interventions by a divine being in our lives. People fashion themselves an imaginary all-powerful friend, and that gives them guidance and reassurance and helps them to live. So that's why the kids will have to face people all their lives who believe in some form of god and base their opinions, beliefs, and many life decisions on what their god's priest or guru will tell them.
There is no way to bring up a child that will protect them permanently from recognizing that most other people hold other beliefs than their own family, no matter what your world view or religion is.
Misleading
"The Constitution guarantees religious freedom, including the right to not believe, as well as the separation of church and state."
This sentence is problematic.
The Constitution does not guarantee the separation of church and state. It is not in the text. It specifically states that "Congress shall MAKE NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." That's it. Whether one chooses to read a "separation" into the meaning of the First Amendment is purely subjective but for originalists this claim is specious. It does not say that government cannot acknowledge God. This sentence also implies that the Constitution mentions the "right to not believe." Again, misleading.
The First Amendment is based
The First Amendment is based on the Virginia Constitution, written by Thomas Jefferson. In a letter to the Danbury Baptists, Jefferson explains what the First Amendment means and assures them that their religious freedom cannot be taken away by the state; "contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”
You are correct in that our U.S. Constitution doesn't have those exact words, but the intent of the First Amendment is crystal clear in Jefferson's own words. It is not open for subjective interpretation. Furthermore, the Supreme Court has invoked the seperation of church and state numerous times in its rulings.
Patriotic?
The article says that
Lisa expresses concern that the "under God" wording strongly implies that nonbelievers are less patriotic than those who believe.
It does imply that (to me). However, that is what those people (who impose such a test) believe; it does not make it so. One has to get used to other people believing all kinds of things; one has to make up one's own mind about them.
Keep it to yourself
I like to think that religion is like a penis. Keep it to yourself... don't wave it around in public... and don't try to shove it down my kids throat!
Agree BUT
While I agree with the issue I believe that Under God is not needed or should be used. We are supposed to be a Godless state, yes Godless state as in our institutions and our government (not the people).
However what did bother me was the comment about standing up saying the pledge and just not saying the under God part because it gives the perception that she is saying the words. I think this is an invalid argument your point is that you dont want your child to be seen as different however you want it to be well known that you will not say those words. That doesnt work nor holds water.
The arguments about not having "Under God" said should not be about your child's feelings but that of constitution and law... otherwise it falls.
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