Our Gender, Ourselves

I would say definitely more liberated. There have been studies to show that boys and girls have the same emotions; they only differ in expressing them. You could say men have learned from an early age that they should suppress most of their emotions which doesn't accomplish much except for deep-seated resentment or outbursts of anger. It's been long overdue for men to be able to freely express how they are feeling without the burden of being called overly emotional or a 'cry-baby'. I think the image of man is evolving to one who is self-disciplined yet caring. They can finally be who they feel they are instead of striving to attain that imaginable egotistical status.

I'm not sure whether I would agree that men are "liberated". Rather, only the parameters of their constraint has been changed. Yes, we can point to the wonderful ways men are more engaged now with family and children. That is indeed a good thing. But, it wasn't an overall increase in freedom, it was a trade where something else was lost (the "masculinity" you speak of).

In decades past, men were "expected" to be assertive, goal-oriented, and strong. Showing passivity, weakness, or emotionality was socially shamed. Now, we have just the reverse. Being emotional, family-oriented, and egalitarian is the politically-correct action "required". Whereas a man who acts assertive, goal-oriented and strong is now labeled aggressive, dangerous, narcissistic, or otherwise deviant.

Of course, that isn't to say that the changes have been any more "freeing" for women. They too swapped the right to have a high-powered career, for being "looked down upon" when they choose to stay home and have a family. Freedom wasn't increased there either - it merely changed forms and boundaries. Both women and men lead "different" lives than they used to, as what society says is "right" and "wrong" changes. But, they are not more free. Nor is either group's behavior more authentic (we would need actual freedom from social constraint to see what each would do "naturally").

Personally, I place the blame on one little word..."should". In this change, the change leaders used the wrong word "should", instead of "can" repeatedly. As a result, women were told they "should" have careers, advanced educations, and high-powered lives. Men, in contrast, were told they "should" be emotional, passive, family-oriented, and other-centered. These again are not words that "free", but rather ones that just change the parameters of constraint. Both genders were ordered to change, not freed or suggested.

If we began to use the word "can" in social discourse instead, then we might see actual "free" behavior in men and women. Telling a woman she "can" get a high-powered job, leaves her both free to pursue one, and/or have a family at her personal discretion. No judgment or social shame either way - both choices are equally valued. Similarly, telling a man that he "can" be emotional and family-oriented also opens that possibility to him, without devaluing his more assertive, goal oriented, and traditionally "masculine" features.

Somewhere along the way, we all messed it up. The intention was to increase freedom - but it turned to coercion. At present, it is indeed an "assault" on masculinity (and femininity too). But, using one little word "can" - can change the dialogue and our understanding of the situation. I hope it does.

I have to disagree there in a slight but nuanced fashion. Society says its great for men to be emotional, loving, stay at home dads. Yet they are still condemned...by women especially when not displaying alpha male qualities.

Remember boys...be assertive, aggressive (this does not mean be an asshole), and take charge. You will be far more successful romantically. Women still want real men regardless of what they say.

Thank you for the article it is very interesting. Am not an expert, but from my personal experience as a 29 year old male I would say:

On some levels I would agree, I think my dad (and us) would have loved for him to spend more time with the family, but being the sole bread winner with six children he always worked hard, was very paranoid about finances, and although made the money never seemed to spent much of it on himself. I think dual income or a well off partner allows men to do more of what they prefer. Maybe my dad would have been happier, but then again he is always very cheerful!

On another level, I would disagree from my experience and that of my male friends. It comes across that men bashing is everywhere today. If you are a masculine male or driven about your career you are considered old fashioned and macho must be a bad person! If you are less so, you are not a man and do not seem to get much credit for helping around the home (he must be wiped, weak, failure…etc.).

Not sure why but I also see a lot of men in my generation that are less driven overall (at work or at home), is that true and can someone explain that? For example men make up only 40% of university grads but I have never heard (could be wrong) of sizable programs to encourage men to further their education and skill set, while women at my job get extra training courses specially designed for women.

I think society should have a more positive view of both men and women who are simply being ‘the best they can be’ versus this zero sum game mentality among the sexes or people being de-motivated because they do not fit into a stereotype or do fit into an old stereotype.

PS. what happened to the US womens' soccer team? Please write about it yourself if it is important!

men and women should be able to be who they are, if you dont like it you dont have to be with him/her.But i dont like how some psych today articles start with advice for real men, or how to de masculinize a male is by feeling sorry for them. WTF? I didnt know the world in general has defined what a real man or women was. I find it odd and disturbing though.

@ jeremey, your right, we are not truly free. Only those with tons of money either way can finally be who they really want to be. The sad thing is in order to get there you usually have to suppress much of who you are to get there unless you come up with a great idea like google or something. Society loves the agressive goal setter cuz those are the people who usually make all the money. Nothing wrong with them, its just many people dont care as much about that stuff but have to pretend they do or are socially shuned if they dont. When we stop allowing society to dictate this, ( not sure how though because having alot of money is the only key to real freedom) then we will be allowed to be who we really want to be.

I love manly men. No, I don't like or want a "brute" - but I DO expect men to behave and look manly. Like they actually produce testosterone. Just like men want women to look and act feminine. I suspect more than anything that the decline of "masculinity" can be traced to the use of birth control pills by their mothers.. but that is another story. Your comment, "Are they being feminized, or humanized?" - is very disparaging and insulting to men. As though to be manly and masculine is not human? That only the feminine is human? Really.. hmmm. For years I have wondered: are men less manly now BECAUSE women are more empowered, more independent, more successful, more confident? Or are women that way because the MEN are less manly and we have to step up to fill the lack? I think overall most women DO want manly, powerful, confident and capable men. Certainly in bed. But they are becoming extinct. And harder and harder to find. Esp. white collar men. Some women, I imagine want to control their mates. And this is much easier with less testosterone-laden specimens. But men can be manly, can be confident, sexy and capable without being a brute. If only more men cared enough to try. ANd it is a shame that women don't seem to appreciate these traits, that so many instead wish to shame those traits out of them. I am lucky to have found one of the few remaining of the breed. His value is unmatched by anyone I know or have met in all of my 50 years. And looking around me every day, the chances of more like him being raised in our hostile (to them) environmentis dwindling by the moment. What a shame. What a loss.

I love manly men. No, I don't like or want a "brute" - but I DO expect men to behave and look manly. Like they actually produce testosterone. Just like men want women to look and act feminine. I suspect more than anything that the decline of "masculinity" can be traced to the use of birth control pills by their mothers.. but that is another story. Your comment, "Are they being feminized, or humanized?" - is very disparaging and insulting to men. As though to be manly and masculine is not human? That only the feminine is human? Really.. hmmm. For years I have wondered: are men less manly now BECAUSE women are more empowered, more independent, more successful, more confident? Or are women that way because the MEN are less manly and we have to step up to fill the lack? I think overall most women DO want manly, powerful, confident and capable men. Certainly in bed. But they are becoming extinct. And harder and harder to find. Esp. white collar men. Some women, I imagine want to control their mates. And this is much easier with less testosterone-laden specimens. But men can be manly, can be confident, sexy and capable without being a brute. If only more men cared enough to try. ANd it is a shame that women don't seem to appreciate these traits, that so many instead wish to shame those traits out of them. I am lucky to have found one of the few remaining of the breed. His value is unmatched by anyone I know or have met in all of my 50 years. And looking around me every day, the chances of more like him being raised in our hostile (to them) environmentis dwindling by the moment. What a shame. What a loss.

I think the prolem could also be increased divorce rates. In the past it was pretty much forbidden for women to divorce, nowadays that happens all the time - which is a good thing, but sadly it means many men grow up without their fathers (though these (abusive) fathers would be a bad role model).

So I'd say it's not neccessarily the society in general but more the way children are raised these days. We went from a very strict up-bringing to a very permissive one - and that in my opinion is the reason for change.

But to enforce a role onto a person simply because of his/hers gender is a very narrow way of thinking. What the real men and real women are like depends on the culture in which you live in. Some (although very, very few) smaller cultures value women far beyond men - because they are the ones who give birth to children. So to truly be able to say what is the right kind of a man/woman would require a knowledge far beyond that of what your sexual prefferences can percieve.

Oh, and on the actual subject of my comment - there is a very thin line between a "real man" and a "brute" in the way most people see the two. Even more concerning is the thinest of all lines - between a "achiever" and a "machiavellian type of person".

So try not to make asumptions of what is correct and incorrect based on what you, yourself desire.

I don't think my comments above are completely based upon what I personally desire. I think there are some absolutes.I hate the word "should" - but I know and expect cars should have 4 wheels, bicycles two wheels with handle bars, a bat should be hard and strong, a roof strong and leak free, etc. LOL I think the role of men should and does include some protector role, provider role, expectation of greater strength (than I), capabilities to round out the feminine (and an ability to build and fix things or at least give it a shot!) And I do not believe this is old fashioned. I think it IS the way we were meant to be, the roles we were meant to fulfill, to round each other out. Somehow, that got off kilter and I suspect it is b/c most men now are not that way - so of course want those expectations to just go away.. And I do not believe for one moment that women's desire for greater status and equality in our society diminishes the masculine one bit. Evolution has been a blessing yes - luckily my man is sensitive, indulgent of me, funny, considerate, tender and is all these things without any discomfort or shame... and that has not taken ANYTHING away from his manly traits - nor does it ever need to.Yes men, you can have it all! Strength, bravery, confidence, an industrious nature...testosterone!

I agree that SOME of the problem MAY be the divorce rates, however, most male children do have one or more male family member around at least some of the time and neighbors, coaches, etc., that could provide examples of masculinity - most are not completely raised without any male influences. And I don't think expecting at least a hint of the natural/genetic/historic patterns of masculinity is "enforcing" it on any one. I suspect this may be something men that don't possess those traits would think. Kinda like ugly women saying looks aren't everything - or "some" men saying size doesn't matter! Of course there are going to be varying degrees. And I do not believe it is merely cultural either. What I DO believe is that men ( mainly white collar I might add)do not do anything physical, challenging, or strenuous, they don't strive for individuality b/c that trait will not get them ahead in MOST jobs/careers. Conformity does. They spend their lives in a closed,communal setting for most, if not all of the day, with close proximity to females and the ensuing rules. Not that I am saying the rules are not necessary - but that there is an unintended result. We live in a overly politically correct and dangerously polite society. One in which ANY expressions of anger (even normal, justified ones) are not allowed without much societal stigma attached. (now of course I am not talking about physical attacks, guns, etc). And confrontations are avoided at all costs. ANY sort of confrontations. Ergo, males are basically becoming neutered by society and the prevailing collectivist attitudes. Team crap and all that. NO individuality is sought out or allowed (unless you own the company that is) and this of course runs over into personal lives. How can it not? Enforced and Learned behavior. Thus it is passed down to sons, and of course daughters see it too... I have seen this in my family. My ex is NOT a strong man (I mean his nature). I and my daughter are - and she does not respect him as a result (and this is based upon HER observations and experiences over the years). He is not someone she would trust to have her back. Sad.

What is happening as a result is that has become a very strong divide between (note: ignoring the outliers here) white collar men and blue collar men. Or maybe educated, white collar men vs. blue collar men. non-manly vs. manly? That is not a good thing. Not for the men, not for the women, not for the children and NOT good for society as a whole. I suspect that if we, as a country, had to defend ourselves on our soil, we would be in some serious trouble. I find that sad. I want there to be more differences between men and women - more than just one has a penis and the other does not.

A lot of text and points, let me see if I can organize it a bit:

Ok, lol, some near comparisons there but I'm not sure is the male traits are just as certain as wheels on cars and other very certain stuff :) I mean sure the traits you describe are all nice and fuzzy and I have those traits myself - despite what one could expect based on my poor childhood history. But they indeed somewhat resemble that of a cultural stereotypical male - the Bruce Springsteen or Bon Jovi (especially in that movie "Valentino ..." something) kind of guy. So it's hard to say what it is suppose to be like - it's not like we were all handed a book on "Gender specified behaviours" (we started out as hunters-gatherers, then things went pretty sour into a master-slave sort of relationship until today, when we strive for equality). Equality is a two edged sword if you want a "manly" man. Hence the social stigma of acceptable vs. desirable vs. needed persists.

Lol again. Those that choose to change society solely because a trait or two of theirs don't "fit" are a bit selfish. But usually their strive is justified beyond their individual attributes (we have enough stigma and wrong asumptions in the society as it is - thus' some poetic freedom on the matter is acceptable).

So two morw points here - one is that cultural bit. I know it's not all cultural, but it mainly does define the kind of preffered traits (good or bad! and by preffered I mean the most common in society). Secondly you speak of money (income), that in itself is also a social problem, with the rise of gold-diggers and their acceptance in the world of today. One thing I can guarantee is that a very rich man won't have any shortage of women at his disposal, regardless of his physique - sadly.

Yes the open confrontations are terribly shuned nowadays ... I guess people preffer passive aggresion over open display of emotion (notice the use of sarcasm ;)).

Not sure exactly what sort of strenght you speak of there. You mean he can't stand strong on his own? He's to dependant? That sort of thing ... ?

I doubt that enforced (scholar) education has to do anything with ones traits, it's more the "school of life" that handles that department. And once again, equality is a double edged sword, a truly 100% equal society has no penis nor vagina, rofl.

Yeah I did say the term g-d in sort of a rush. But what I meant was that if it's the SOLE factor - and yes it's also sad when a man starts any kind of a relationship with a woman based SOLELY on good-looks. As for looking for a man that is financially capable - I have no problem with that as long as you use it as just one more thing on the "pro" side of the list.

Ok not even going to comment my joke about equal and the same ... all I (tried to say) said there was that if "equal" isn't "the same" (and yes I know it isn't) then you'd need some very fine boundaries to separate the two - and when you're dealing with 7 billion people (= 7 billion opinions), fine boundaries are nothing more than a dream.

Yes I know from the females I know that BC pills are a VERY BAD idea. I don't know what they cause in the affected generations of children, but I know about quite a few females that had some (more or less) serious health issues because of using them (so not just the children, but the actual women who use the pills). So once you think about it ... there isn't really a good offer on the "safe-sex" department (eg. BC pills are worse then smoking/drinking/drugs combined, condoms are like "having sex with a rain coat" as one of my friends so eloquently put it and then you have the more permanent solutions ... they work 100% (more or less) but there is no more changing your mind afterwards).

Oh and about anti-depressants, there is a much better research which shows that eating ice-cream has the same beneficial effect (when fighting depression and the likes) as do the a-d meds. And even though you may say it has way too much calories, it could actually be another plus - b/c if you don't want to let yourself go (b/c of eating all that ice-crem) you have to excercise more (and excercise is the best thing you can do for yourself anyways).

So there, I hope that cleared out most of my rushed typing.

I don't think that men are being "liberated". If men were being liberated suicide rates between men wouldn't be so high. Also, if you look at high schools and universities it is obvious that every day there are less men pursuing careers. More teenager boys are getting less than motivated and while women are becoming more succesful men are falling apart. That is by no means sign of any male liberation. On the contrary, what it seems to be is that while women are gaining more power and want it all, men can't find their own place in society and family. Some things coming out of women gaining power are good like equality and men spending more time with their families, but women's attitudes are turning into an attack to masculinity. I don't understand why men can't look like men and have to go to get totally waxed and get a manicure to get a girl's attention. That is feminization of men. Today for guys is damned if you do, damned if you don't. If they behave like a regular guy they are critized for it and they have to behave like a girl to please women. I don't know how anybody can see that as liberation.