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I believe orcas truly love their trainers. The problem is, it's a lopsided arrangement. The trainers aren't giving them anything close to the kind of love, understanding, and training workouts they really need. And as long as we fool ourselves into believing they're being treated fairly and humanely, some of them will occasionally do something to point this out. Read More
It's a thought-provoking piece...
Interesting, challenging blog. Thank you. Here’s what happened in my head after I read it (twice):
I agree. Sea World, Sea World’s trainers and Sea World’s customers have missed the point.
But it is in their best interest to miss the point, isn’t it?
If they want to start questioning the situation, seriously questioning the situation, why not start with the repeated declaration that she loved her job, it was her dream job.
We heard that over and over again.
I winced every time I heard it.
Are they saying that her life-goal was to make giant sea creatures do cute tricks in front of a stadium audience? Oh dear.
Once that’s out of the way, other questions:
Are we really still debating that other species rebel against our efforts to dominate them? Just how many mauled or dead trainers and mauled or dead exotic pet owners does it take for angry rebellion to become a factor in the behavior equation?
Am I alone in thinking that their “gold-standard” is a closed, rigid, arrogant, self-serving description? (not much room for growth when you are self-proclaimed “gold standard”)
Why not appoint an advocate for each sea creature at Sea World, an advocate who would talk, for instance, about the teeny-weeny enclosures? ( compared to an ocean, Sea World’s enclosures are rather small, granted? )
I’ll skip some of my other questions and get down to my off-the-wall musing:
Can anyone prove that children who are brought to amusement parks which feature other species forced into circus tricks are mentally healthier and/or happier than children who color in a coloring book?
Rachel Gordon-Fischoff
Sit, Fido, Sit.
If I hadn't been close to Dawn Brancheau, I might have been amused by the gall of some random dog trainer questioning the likes of behavioral giants like Karen Pryor and Thad Lacinak. Dude, you couldn't carry their jockstraps.
Just Telling the Truth
I'm just telling the truth, TruthGuy (whoever you are).
I don't know anything about Thad Lacinak, but if he's the behavioral giant" you claim he is then he's clearly lying about what happened on Feb. 4th. Did he lie to protect Tilikum, SeaWorld, or himself? I have no idea. I only know he's either lying or he doesn't know much about animal behavior.
As for Karen Pryor, as I said in the article she's right about one thing, that conditioning is like a business transaction. Besides, the problem is, despite Keller Breland's admonition to be on the lookout for "instinctive drift," operant conditioning (at least as practiced at SeaWorld and by most +R dog trainers) still isn't geared toward dealing with strong instincts, drives, and urges. In other words (in case you missed my entire point), killer whales are being screwed by SeaWorld and by behavioral science. It's not a fair proposition to be forced to give up the wild, and the thrill of hunting large prey, in exchange for a bucket full of chum. Or am I wrong about the calculus on that?
LCK
BTW: Next time you think about giving yourself a fake name, you might want think up something a little less self-contradictory. Seriously, a TruthGuy who gives himself a fake name?
And since when does Karen Pryor wear a jockstrap?
Oh spare me TruthGay...
Thank you TruthGay... your statement completely reinforces the point that Mr Kelley makes on the disillusioned followers of the we-can-do-no-wrong SeaWorld strategy. Behavioral giants? Are you kidding me? I mean really... how dare anyone have the gall to question the Gold Standard of SeaWorlds training which led to the brutal death of your friend Dawn? Not to mention Tillys other victims or the victims of his kids.
With the collaborative braintrust of SeaWorld, its current employees, past employees, consultants, paid defenders and trainers who were there that fateful day, I ask- Why is it that not one of these Gods of mans creations took notice or reported to the investigating authorities that the whales were behaving abnormally, aggressively and uncooperatively just 30 minutes prior to the attack? Why did it take a casual observer like me to correlate my observations of the problem behaviors exhibited in the final Believe show with the events I witnessed from just outside the Dining with Shamu event? HMMMM.... I wonder. Was it intentional to hide the flaws in their perfect system? Or do they truly believe that they just know better, are mightier-than-thou and how dare anyone question their tactics. Or is it more than that?
Well I took my observations to the investigators, who, were quite surprised to hear my accounts of that day, indicating that SeaWorld had not offered any of that information. But I'm sure they've since been questioned because their latest spin is that the whales were slightly disobedient in the earlier show.
I believe that the aggressive behavior exibited amongst the pod that day may well have been an indicator that there was a problem, and if interaction with them was averted, Dawn may still be alive today living her dream. I base my theory on my numerous years of experience with aquatic mammal behavior. Oh wait, I have no formal experience or training and can only aspire to attain the God-like status of those you so failingly defend here... dude.
How about zoos
For me the positives in a Zoo or orcas doing tricks is rarely for the animals involved but perhaps to help cement the bridge between animals and humans in terms of humans having their heart more open to the animal kingdom. And as a consequence animals at large will be helped by our changed attitude.
From that perspective zoo animals or any wild animal doing tricks is seen as their personal sacrifice for the greater good.
But I am not sure.
Sea World =/= Zoo
I love how people keep trying to drag zoos into this argument. But there is one thing that people don't seem to realize. Sea World is not a zoo. Yes both display animals to the public. But zoo's are actual scientific institutions. People don't go to zoo's to see animals perform. They go to circuses for that. Zoo's have changed a lot over the years since they were first opened. Their study of animals has opened their eyes to the cruelty of the old ways (isolation, concrete and steel cages that were barely large enough to even allow movement, etc) and zoological institutions have changed for what they acknowledge is for the better with open exhibts that simulate the animals natural enviroment.
Sea World is the Barnum and Bailies of aquatic parks/aquariums. People don't go there to just watch fish swimming in large artificial enviroments made to simulate the deep ocean. In fact, the poor orca's at Sea World don't even have the benefit of an artifical enviroment. They have stark, shallow tanks that force them to do nothing more then circle, day in and day out. They don't even allow them to dive like they would in the wild. And they're not just dumb animals, these are intelligent creatures with individual thought processes.
The owners and operators of Sea World care to much about their bottom line to even consider making changes to the way they keep or treat their animals, even if it would be for the better. That would cost too much money, money that could be lining their pockets instead of trying to create larger or more natural holding tanks for the orcas. I do believe that the trainers and vets at the park do honestly care for the animals they work with. Dawn did have a very cool job, one that she was very lucky to have and I have no doubt that she truely loved. Orca's are very beautiful creatures. It's a shame that the park admin doesn't do better by them.
Until they do, they are nothing more then an aquatic circus
To Anonymous "How about zoos" -- Please rethink!
I believe we all need to educate ourselves on questions like this. Please rent "The Cove", the recent documentary about dolphins that are captured in Japan and sold to the aquarium/theme parks throughout the world. It will really open your eyes. It is a tragedy. There is no greater good being accomplished here, other than a well-intentioned but misplaced warm fuzzy by the consumer/public who loves to look at/touch/play with these animals. Same goes for the Orcas that we get to watch doing tricks. Their sacrifice, imposed upon them by humans, is truly not worth it. I think humans that need "hearts more open to the animal kingdom" would do better to be educated by movies such as "The Cove" or hey, just go whale watching on a boat.
This article is an incoherent
This article is an incoherent response that no doubt is aimed more at grinding some axe regarding psychological theories than actually critiquing the training program. I don't know what that axe is, but the whole tone reminds me of [incoherent argument deleted--LCK]
Learning is classical, operant, or cognitive, unless Kelley has a breakthrough and has discovered a new form. Given 3 to choose from, Kelley never bothers to explain what *does* account for animal learning in the wild although he's certain it isn't operant. Nor does he explain why the other 2 would have prevented the death of the trainer.
Implicit Argument
If you're the same "Mike" who commented ad nauseum on my last entry in this series, then you should know better. Are you skimming again?
Look, implicit in my article was the argument that these animals' innate energy needs -- their drives, urges, and instincts as group predators -- are not being properly addressed by operant conditioning. That's why Tilikum killed his trainer. That's why the entire group of orcae weren't "cooperating" on the day of the tragedy.
Is there another way to train these animals? Yes, probably, if we really want to continue down that road (which I don't think is advisable). But it would be far more expensive, and would require a complete paradigm shift, one that would in all likelihood bear little resemblance to anything you, as a behavioral scientist, now know about learning and behavior.
LCK
nope, that was my 1st comment
nope, that was my 1st comment ever on the forum. Didn't know the authors read & reply, but since you do...
You wrote, and I quote, "Operant conditioning is not based on the way animals learn, out in nature. It's a synthetic version of learning, based primarily on the way animals learn and behave in a lab." I would just love to hear your version of the "natural" ways animals learn in the wild. And a bit more detail, perhaps, of why the overwhelming majority of academic psychologists have been so wrong all these years about operant conditioning playing a role in animal and human learning when its just an artificial laboratory phenomenom.
It Should Be Abundantly Clear...
...that operant conditioning doesn't work as well in a natural setting as it does in the lab. Why do you think SeaWorld keeps its captive orcas in small tanks? It's because the more artificial the setting, the better oc works. SeaWorld certainly has enough money to give these animals a more natural environment, and it would actually be advantageous, from a PR perspective, for them to do so. The reason they don't is that the more natural the environment, the less influence conditioning has on the orca's behavior, i.e., the less "cooperative" they become.
This is why I said that operant conditioning is both ineffective and inhumane. Only a blind ideologue (like yourself) would think otherwise.
LCK
my last comment everywhere, I promise...
Elsewhere on your blog you've written that the laws of learning accepted by mainstream scientists are wrong, when learning happens its really due to some "energy" effects. And when training doesn't work out as expected, more evidence that your "energy" ideas are right. In short, there is no possible observation that doesn't provide more evidence for your theory. That's not science, that's religion. You could just as well substitute "the will of God" for your ramblings about energy connections present since the Big Bang. But in your eyes I'm the blind ideologue (or should that be heretic?)
Feel Free to Mischaracterize My Positions...
...to bolster your arguments, but at least admit that that's what you're doing.
Here's another take on this idea of behavior as an expression of energy.
LCK
Mike you are obviously not
Mike you are obviously not paying attention to what is being said at all because it makes a lot of sense. He's not talking about anything spiritual or otherworldly. He's talking about these being large animals that, by their nature, need to move. They are high energy animals as opposed to something like a house cat that just sits there happily all day in the windowsill and could give a damn about anything else.
Lets bring this down to a smaller level that perhaps you can associate with more.
Say you have a high energy, but highly intelligent and trainable breed of dog such as a pit bull or a German Shepard. Heck, lets actually use the Shepard and even say it is a highly trained police/service animal. Now lets take that dog and lock it in a house all day. Alone for the most part except for when you want to train it and pat it and give it treats. But that's all. The dog is never allowed out for a walk. It's never even allowed out into a fenced in yard to run around. It has the house to move around in as it pleases but that's it's limit. There's no toys in the house or anything else, just a dog bed and some food bowls. Otherwise it has to wait for it's trainer to come to provide any outside stimulation. Do you honestly think that dog is going to perform perfectly every time? Do you not think that the animal won't get bored and start becoming difficult or destructive at some point?
Or better yet have you ever had that one friend or relative that had a "Basement Dog"? You know, the kind that always gets put away in a bathroom/laundry room/basement when company comes over because it's fine around the family but around others it gets to hyper/excitable to be controlled? Ever seen what happens when one of those dogs accidentally gets out in the house with the company? Nothing violent. No one gets attacked but people and children can get hurt by getting scratched/bitten/knocked over by this franticly excited animal that is jumping and bouncing and dying for attention/affection.
THAT is the energy that the author is talking about. Nothing spiritual and certainly no 'religious' connotations you are referring to.
tilikum
ponytail my ass..orcas swim 100 miles a day in the ocean.they are kept in teacups by greedy humans and you wonder why the slaves revolt..let's put you in a car trunk for your life with water, food and waste service..and a peephole so we can watch you obey. sick...always has been. FREE TILI!
tilikum
you are right. you are not an expert on whales and dolphins. And you have absolutely no experience working with them in captivity. And, you obviously have not seen their 'play' behavior in the wild either, because, if you had, you would notice that it is very 'rough', if for no other reason, due to their size alone.
People who continue to make statements on this subject, even admitting they have no qualifications to do so, really should retire all together and stick to topics in which they do have knowledge of.
Thad is not only a previous 'head' trainer, he is a former VP of Animal Training. His experience with Killer Whales, especially with Killer Whales at the SeaWorld parks outweighs any of the wanna be experts who's opinions are based entirely on their 'feelings' rather than any knowledge of what actually goes on, or has gone on. Or worse, based on the words of the extremist animal rights groups, who are so far off base with the information they give out, even they know they know they are wrong.
The truth of the matter is, Dawn or any other trainer had no business being in a position that allowed for her to be grabbed by any part of her body at all by this particular whale. Especially her ponytail. This would mean that her head would have had to have been really close to his mouth, and with his history, this was a very stupid move on not only her part, but on SeaWorlds part.
Once Tilikum discovered how 'fun' these 'people' were to play with, when they inadvertently entered the water with him, on the previous two occasions,in which people died due to drowning, there is no doubt in my mind, after having worked with these animals myself, and witnessed how they are capable of having the patience and ability of waiting for the perfect opportunity, that Tilikum saw his chance to have another chance to play with another 'human' toy, and took it.
In no way was this a vicious attack. He was not consciously trying to kill Dawn. But he can't be blamed for wanting to play with a toy, he had not played with in over 11 years.
His shaking of Dawn would be the equal to that of dog or puppy shaking their favorite toy. And not that of a an animal attempting to rip and tear something apart. Trust me, had he meant to have done such a thing, there would have been body parts to be netted out of the pool. Anyone who knows the smallest bit about cetaceans at all, knows how capable killer whales are of ripping and tearing their prey, which often consist of adult sea lions, weighing much more than Dawn, and even other whales.
Whether or not he saw the ponytail as a toy or not, he certainly experienced hair rubbing along a very sensitive tongue as being something 'novel' and well worth investigating further into.
Since they have no hands, they use their mouths, just as dogs do, to explore objects with.
I don't know why you feel the need to drag this topic out further that it really needs to go, other than to draw attention to yourself for those who, like you, have no idea, or any knowledge of what it is they are protesting against.
I worked for SeaWorld and was associated with this whale and most all of the marine mammals during my 13 years there. When I was there, as Thad pointed out in the interview you spoke of in your blog, no trainer would have been in a position to have such a thing happen.
Over the years, with no incidents occurring, I suppose safety procedures and policies relaxed, and as a result, some one paid for it with their life. But I am sick of reading and hearing people say that this was something Tilikum did, intending to kill Dawn. I am certain that Dawn herself would be tired of it too.
Please stick to what you do know about and continue to educate people in that area. Spreading further ignorance in areas where no knowledge is held, serves absolutely no one.
I respected your opinion
I respected your opinion right up until you said you had worked for SeaWorld.
You talk of spreading further ignorance; there is no bigger ignorance than thinking that an orca can be kept in a tank.
Reply to KKJ
KKJ "The truth of the matter is, Dawn or any other trainer had no business being in a position that allowed for her to be grabbed by any part of her body at all by this particular whale. Especially her ponytail."
A) If Dawn Brancheau or any other trainer had interacted with Tilimuk, or any other orca, the way she did, in its native habitat, there wouldn't have been a problem. Why? Because the animal wouldn't have had his natural energy needs repressed by being kept captive and trained to do tricks for treats, rather than being given something that truly satisfies his species' energy needs.
B) If operant conditioning were truly as effective as Karen Pryor et al believe it is, the other orcas wouldn't have refused to cooperate at show time.
C) If operant conditioning were truly humane, Tilimuk would've had no reason to act the way he did.
Don't blame Dawn Brancheau; the real guilty parties are SeaWorld and operant conditioning.
LCK
you lost all my respect
Fact: This is the real world, not your fantasy world. Get a grip and come down to face reality with the rest of us.
First, As I said before, you have absolutely no idea what the whales experience on a day to day, week to week basis. You have no idea what their 'needs' even are, because you have never experienced being a killer whale. Therefore, you only can imagine, with you human thoughts and feelings what a killer whale 'might' need and/or desire. You have never been involved in a full day of all that is involved and all of the different types of interactions which are focused on with the Killer Whales, and all of the other animals at Sea World.
If you knew anything about biology, you would know that lack of exercise would result in severe problems with females giving birth. And, if you knew anything at all, you would know just how successful the breeding program has been with the Killer Whales, with a the newest baby girl being born in San Antonio, being third generation captive born. Which pretty much kills all of the discussions of how short Killer Whale's life spans are in captivity.
No one was blaming Dawn, although, she was there when I was, and there would have been no way, under any condition I would have put myself in the position I saw her putting herself in, on the film footage I saw, which supposedly was moments before she was pulled into the water. And, if you would have payed attention to what I typed, instead of being in such a rush to type an idiotic response, you would have noticed that I did mention that SeaWorld had lowered their safety protocols since I had left.
So far, I have seen no evidence of the whales refusing to preform at any particular show during the day of this incident. Although the whales always have a choice to perform or not to. It isn't as if they are forced to interact at any time at all. Nor do they ever get punished for not doing so. Another one of your false assumptions, or ideas gathered through information from sources knowing nothing about which they are blabbing about.
I don't know what your issue is with operant conditioning and Karen Pryor is. Honestly I really could care less. But really, take it up with her on her web site. And really, why not deal with it on a much closer level, such as that of 'dog' training? I mean look at the way we keep them in captivity and control their lives. We take away their ability to freely breed, or we choose which dog they will be allowed to breed. When they will eat. When they can go outside or come inside. We teach them cute little trick for our entertainment. We modify their behavior to suit our lifestyle. They must have 'good' manners. They serve our disabled, and our law enforcement, along with several other agencies. Not to mention all of the Scientific studies and research done on them. We worry about things we know absolutely nothing about, while the animals in which we share our lives with, are abused, neglected, and tortured on a daily basis.
Not to mention the number of them which are euthanized every day.
Let's look at what is happening in our homes with 'our' own animals.
I am sure that you do to your dogs, just as everyone else who is complaining about what Killer Whales being 'forced' to do, in captivity (which in reality, is never the case) does to their 'pets', when it comes down to it. But I am sure no one really wants to look at it in that perspective at all.
That would mean having to admit someone other than yourself having a point.
And, while I am not blaming Dawn, Why don't you grasp a piece of whatever form of sense available to you, and stop blaming Tilikum as well. He is not at fault either. Are you one of the people who were screaming to have him destroyed? Somehow I don't doubt it.
It worries me when you say
It worries me when you say "the whales always have a choice to perform or not to. It isn't as if they are forced to interact at any time at all. Nor do they ever get punished for not doing so"
Surely, being kept in a tiny tank and being on show (whether performing or not) is punishment in itself. Perhaps we share different ideas of what punishment is.
As said by someone else on the posts, zoos and SeaWorld are different in the way that zoos (the good ones anyway) try to keep enclosures as close to the natural habitat as possible. Zoos also have endangered animal breeding programs, which specialise in trying to repopulate so that breeds don't eventually die out. I'm not saying I agree with keeping any animal in captivity, but those zoos or santuaries that do carry out endangered breeding programs are at least doing it for the greater good. SeaWorld breeding in captivity really brings nothing to the animal world. Killer whales aren't the most endangered species by far, and are capable of breeding without the help of SeaWorld. And those whales like Tilikum aren't even displaying the same behaviours as those in the wild. Look at the case of Keiko, he was completely lost when he was released back into the wild. You talk about a new baby girl being born in captivity like it's an achievement. It's not an achievement to bring a baby whale into a world of misery and constriction. They can't even be released into the wild to re-populate because they haven't clue how to react in their normal environment. Experts from Vancouver Island have, in light of the recent events, said that the whales become neurotic in captivity. A senior trainer who was at SeaWorld for 8 years has also admitted that if they were an orca, it's the last place they'd want to live. The same trainer goes on to say that Tilikum is most vulnerable to bullying from the others "because there is less room for him to maneuver" (due to his size). And SeaWorld's original decision to keep Tilikum because he is a big part of the breeding program is insulting. They're basically allowing him to live so that he can provide them with more whales to keep in captivity. I really don't want to see Tilikum killed, but at the same time I don't really want him to remain in the concrete prison that is SeaWorld.
research please
I suggest you look into areas other than the Killer Whale breeding program, such as several species of Sea Turtles, Manatees, and too many other species to mention here, that perhaps may not be known to you, which are being successfully bred in order to conserve the species. Let us not forget all of the money and time SeaWorld puts into research, rescue, and rehabilitation efforts of all types of sea life, not only that of marine mammals.
Also, the education programs SeaWorld offers are the best I have ever experienced in my 30 years of ZOO and Aquarium experience. Also, I do really hate to break the news to all of those who want to separate the two. They are all members of the American Zoological Association and yes, many zoos, especially the 'best' of them have programs which feature animals who may 'perform' in some way or another.
Also, If anyone cared to, they would look at the early years, when whales and dolphins were first kept in captivity, and see the difference between then and now. Then maybe, if by doing so, one would be able to think to themselves, "It really hasn't been very long that Killer Whales have been in captivity at all. I bet it won't be much longer until SeaWorld is able to design a much larger and much more naturalistic habitat for their Killer Whales to live in. Maybe I should be a little more patient and give them a chance."
The fact is , with the captive population growing the way that it is, SeaWorld has already been planning for this. No one wants a better more appeasing to the 'human eye', environment for the whales than those who care for them. Honestly, I am not really sure if the whales could care less, but hopefully we will see, sooner than later.
If the whales were depressed, stressed, or in anyway distressed, they would not eat, they would not be so willing and anxious to interact with the 'horrible' people who 'supposedly' "punish" them. And most of all, they certainly would not take part in breeding activity. And heaven forbid successfully raising one calf, let alone the number of calves born and successfully raised in the 'punishing' environment in which they reside in.
You are basing everything on how you 'think' the whales 'should' feel and not at all on any scientific study or knowledge.
I am sure you will continue feeling as you do,and that is fine. It is people like you that will ensure that Killer Whales do not become endangered. But, remember, you would have never learned that Killer Whales are as wonderful as they are without first, learning from those who have been in captivity. Otherwise, they would still be hunted for their meat, and shot by fisherman on a regular basis.
Only because of discovering through captive whales and dolphins, their intelligence and incredible abilities, was the marine mammal protection act put into place.
In reply to all your comments
In reply to all your comments on scientific knowledge, I suggest you read the post below added by Alex and visit http://www.wdcs.org/submissions_bin/orcareport.pdf
This SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH outlines the differences between orcas in captivity and those in the wild, and is carried out by only ONE of the organisations dedicated to orcas (and other marine mammals) and their wellbeing.
Pay special attention to the parts concerning births in captivity and section four on Life in the Tank.
And I have to remember that I'd never have learned that killer whales are as wonderful as they are without first learning from those who have been in captivity?! Excuse me, but I choose to learn about killer whales through books and studies/observations from the wild. And in relation to your comment about them no longer being hunted for their meat because of captivity: shall we start capturing humpback and blue whales too to save them from whalehunting?
Done my research
Looked into your claims that seaworld is a zoo and you know what I found out?
They don't even try to call themselves one.
Taken from their own webpages:
"SeaWorld Parks & Entertainment is one of the largest adventure park operators in the United States. Its parks are located throughout the country:" taken from here: http://www.becjobs.com/Scripts/ParkInfo.aspx
"We're among the most beautiful and best-known family-oriented theme parks in the world. We provide authentic, inspiring “real world” experiences with up-close exotic animal encounters, the best roller coasters and thrill rides and the most innovative and exciting shows and attractions." taken from here: http://www.seaworldparksblog.com/about
They do talk about their rescue operations, and or course brag about their being "home to the first killer whale born and raised in the care of humans", but they never, ANYWHERE, state they are anything but an entertainment venue, wanting you to spend your money there instead of an actual zoo or aquarium because they have Orca's that do tricks, and there aren't a lot of places do. That's their wow factor. And they know that's what people go there for. If Seaworld didn't have their orca's, they would loose most of their paying customers.
"They are all members of the American Zoological Association and yes, many zoos, especially the 'best' of them have programs which feature animals who may 'perform' in some way or another."
The "Best" Zoos don't carry themselves by their animal performers though. People don't go there specifically for the fact that they will see animals perform like they do to Seaworld. That's what circuses are for. The best zoos have outstanding reputations that are what bring people in, not novelty. They have no qualms about lending their animals to other Zoos for display or breeding. And in fact most of them prefer to do this instead of using methods like Seaworlds Frozen Tilly Juice. They allow the animals to actually mate naturally and breed, and only step in when that fails.
When was the last time Seaworld lent out one of their orca's to another institution?
Of all the captive bred Orca (including the still birth/miscarried as well as the live birth) do any of them come from an actual male/female coupling, or are they all artificial insemination? That is the true test of if a species can/is thriving in captivity. If they mate willingly/easily on their own.
Orca have been in captivity since the 1960's. And I'm sure the whales care a great deal about their living enviroement. Lets see, being able to have the ability to actually dive and swim and act like a real whale, or just swim in circles until they let you into the performance tank? Hmmmmm...
Reply to a Rambling, Inchoherent KKJ
KKJ: "while I am not blaming Dawn, Why don't you grasp a piece of whatever form of sense available to you, and stop blaming Tilikum as well. He is not at fault either. Are you one of the people who were screaming to have him destroyed? Somehow I don't doubt it."
I'm not blaming the orca, I'm blaming the ideological nature of behavioral science as its being applied to animal training. I thought that was perfectly clear. Operant conditioning has been called the "gold standard" of training and it's clearly not.
As for Tilikum, he should not be kept in a small tank, earning his living by splashing SeaWorld customers.
LCK
oh ok mr expert
Then you want to release the killer whales then.
OK, let's do that. Like we did with Keiko? When all of the animal rights idiots finally got what the wanted, and cheered Keiko all the way to his death?
Gee, that would be wonderful. Let's kill the SeaWorld whales to please Mr. Kelly so he will stop whining a blog concerning a topic he knows absolutely nothing about.
Why don't get a group together and rally the cause? You could make history! Wow! Imagine that.
"25 whales released and swim to freedom for 3 days and die." But Mr. Kelly and his group are smiling ear to ear. Proud of the fact that they led the way and were entirely responsible for the deaths of these animals. " Mr Kelly replies that he will now return to his daily blog on something about dogs, where he claims to be an "expert" and where the entire 'cause' for freeing Tilikum and the other Killer Whales at Seaworld began."
operant conditioning is not a method of training, you bumbling idiot.
It is a form of learning in which every living thing having a central nervous system learns through. stimuli-action-consequence. the consequence determines whether or not the action is likely to occur more often or not, when the stimuli appears again in the environment.
exp. child. stimuli=.red hot burner on stove-action= child touches hot stove- consequence =- painful burn- the likelihood of the child touching a red hot stove in the future decreases significantly.
exp. dog-stimuli=smell in garbage can- action= dog investigates garbage can- consequence=yummy leftovers in garbage can. likelihood of dog returning to the garbage can to find more 'yummy' leftovers increases significantly.
This is not a method of training, it is how living things learn. Or at least one of the ways.
Trainers do use operant conditioning as a way of teaching certain behaviors. It makes perfect sense to use a scientific form of learning to teach. Unless of course you are on of those who believe that 'dominating' and using intimidation, choking, alpha rolls, leash corrections and other such forms of handling methods actually 'teach' a dog anything at all.
Most trainers also use Classical Conditioning as well, which is another very common way of learning among all animals, including humans, which involves learning through association.
Maybe you should read a bit on Learning theory.
I am really quite surprised you call yourself a trainer, although, unfortunately, anyone can slap that label on themselves, without having any real experience in the area at all, and not understand how learning occurs.
Honestly, I am embarrassed to have even engaged any conversation with you at all at this point.
I thought you had more intellect than you have shown.
I have no desire to discuss this topic or any other with you.
You have proven to be not only less than uneducated, but very childish and unreasonable.
I hope that in the future you will first research topics you choose to pick up your sword and attempt take a stand on.
You may impress those, who like you, have no knowledge or experience in the area of what is being discussed, but to those who do have direct knowledge and experience, you honestly do make a fool of yourself.
Kind Regards
Yet Another Reply to KKJ
KKJ: "Operant conditioning is not a method of training, you bumbling idiot. It is a form of learning in which every living thing having a central nervous system learns through. stimuli-action-consequence. the consequence determines whether or not the action is likely to occur more often or not, when the stimuli appears again in the environment."
What can I say? You've proved the point of my article (that for animal trainers behavioral science is more of an ideology than a science) over and over again. Operant conditioning is not a form of learning, it is, in fact, a theoretical model, and an incomplete and inexact one at that. Most animals do not learn through the law of cause-and-effect or the law of consequences. Those ideas are based on a mechanistic, 19th-Century view of nature, and are highly anthropomorphic.
"This is not a method of training, it is how living things learn. Or at least one of the ways. Trainers do use operant conditioning as a way of teaching certain behaviors. It makes perfect sense to use a scientific form of learning to teach."
I agree. But what I'm saying, and have been saying through this series of articles, is that behavioral science is, in fact, more of an ideology than a science, and that for animal trainers especially, it's more like a religion. Your inability to articulate your positions in a calm, clinical manner, suggests that I'm right (at least where you're concerned).
"Unless of course you are on of those who believe that 'dominating' and using intimidation, choking, alpha rolls, leash corrections and other such forms of handling methods actually 'teach' a dog anything at all."
Right. It always comes back to the “us-vs.-them” argument. When your methods fail you have to pull the, “At least we’re better than the alternative” argument. Yes, you are better. The problem is that doesn't do anything to help Dawn Brancheau or he friends and family, now does it?
I think you should read the first series of articles I wrote for Psychology Today:
http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/my-puppy-my-self/200904/is-your-dog-dominant-part-i
http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/my-puppy-my-self/200904/is-your-dog-dominant-part-ii
http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/my-puppy-my-self/200904/is-your-dog-dominant-part-iii
http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/my-puppy-my-self/200905/pack-leader-or-predator
“Most trainers also use Classical Conditioning as well, which is another very common way of learning among all animals, including humans, which involves learning through association."
Given the size and shapes of their brains, it isn't possible for most animals to learn through making associations either. You need to read my other articles in the "Of Mice & Mutts" series.
“Maybe you should read a bit on Learning theory."
I've probably read more and know more about learning theory than you do. I've actually studied almost all of Skinner's major writings in depth (including “Are Theories of Learning Necessary?”). I also know, for example, that the Premack principle - which is probably the biggest breakthrough in behavioral science since Skinner synthesized his model of operant conditioning - while extremely helpful in animal training, is actually false (as written), and has been proven to be false. Yet it works. Why? Not for the reasons behavioral scientists think it does.
“I am really quite surprised you call yourself a trainer, although, unfortunately, anyone can slap that label on themselves, without having any real experience in the area at all, and not understand how learning occurs. Honestly, I am embarrassed to have even engaged any conversation with you at all at this point. I thought you had more intellect than you have shown. I have no desire to discuss this topic or any other with you."
If only that were true. Sigh. And yet you continue, and so without really knowing anything about me or what I stand for.
And by the way, how, exactly, does learning occur, in your view? Most behavioral scientists would argue that all that's necessary is to know what learning is, not how or why it occurs. As a model, learning theory only describes the process in technical terms. It never explains it. I'm surprised you don't know that.
“You may impress those, who like you, have no knowledge or experience in the area of what is being discussed, but to those who do have direct knowledge and experience, you honestly do make a fool of yourself."
Back atcha.
LCK
PS: You're extremely lucky that the "delete" function on these comments is temporarily inactive. Try to control your attitude and tone. The next time you resort to name-calling, etc., I'll delete your comments in their entirety, despite the fact that such behavior on your part proves my point about behavioral science's ideological nature.
KKJ, show some respect for differering opinions...
Now let's talk reality. You are so quick to condemn the theories of anyone who has formed an opinion that differs from yours while you merely base your "conclusions" on the same scant evidence that everyone else has. You too can only "imagine" what was in the mind of Tilly that day and what his needs and desires are. Anyone, including you, that purports to "know" what Tilly was thinking that day has indeed lost touch with reality. And if there is anyone out there, be it Thad, Ms Pryor, Chuck Tompkins or yourself who claims that they do indeed know what he was thinking, in my opinion, should be brought up on charges, not dissimilar to the owner of an aggressive pet who knowingly creates an avoidable situation that results in tragedy.
The facts are:
1. SeaWorlds methods have failed. Period. The evidence: Dawn is dead.
2. Nobody knows and may never know what Tilly's intentions were.
3. You don't know what you are talking about. a)because you were not there b)your lack of evidence is because you are not privy to the evidence
4. The whales were behaving uncooperatively and aggressively just 30 minutes prior to the attack. The 12:30pm Believe show was halted for 10 minutes during the "splash" portion of the show. The show did not resume and concluded prematurely because the whales were not participating or performing.
5. The term "punishment" is subjective and a matter of interpretation. I recall that during the 10 minute "intermission" in which the whales were going to be given a "cool-down period", the trainer (I can't recall specifically if it was Dawn) who came out and spoke stated that they were just going to "ignore" the whales until they simmered down. Couldn't this be considered a form of "punishment" for an intelligent social animal like Orcas?
6. Dawn should not have been in the position she was in. This is a failure on many levels including her own judgment, the judgment of her coworkers, lack of oversight and communication by SeaWorld staff, SeaWorld policies and complacency, the profit-driven notion that "the show must go on", misinformation on whale behavior and training, and the general idea that we can indeed "tame the wild beast".
7. Tilikum is a Killer Whale. Plain and simple.
While I respect your "opinions and theories" they are just that. Just as are the theories of everyone else, regardless of their training, expertise or knowledge of the facts. You should respect those as well. No one can change what happened and I do not believe that anyone could successfully challenge the fact that there are a number of good things that SeaWorld does. But the fact remains that there are serious flaws in the entire sytem of maintaining these large animals in captivity and changes in the entire "system" need to be made.
If you so desire, you can see a video of my accounts from that day, albeit edited, here: http://www.wmbfnews.com/Global/story.asp?S=12074270
KKJ, Show some respect for differing opinions...
JohnBoston, there is no video at that link... is it available anywhere else?
No, I'm not the Mike who
No, I'm not the Mike who commented before. On the RSS feed from Psych Today your blog was in the box, sounded interesting, so I clicked on it. And now that I click on your other articles I see I was correct; your article really isn't about the unfortunate trainer, its a pretext to dish on the some of the dogmas of psychology. Apparently you've come up with some "energy theory" to explain learning, and "behavior is learned, not through reinforcers, but through the reduction of internal tension or stress". Yeah, whatever.
Interesting article
It's nice to see an article finally addressing how one-sided places like SeaWorld are for animals like Tilikum. Most articles have been saying how the killer whale lives up to its' name; despite there being no known human death involving an orca attack in the wild. Obviously I think it's awful that something like this had to happen, and obviously I can't imagine what Dawn's friends or family must be going through.
At the same time, however, I can't help but think of what an orca (or its' family for that matter) goes through when it's faced with captivity. I adopt an orca through the Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society, and the whales in the program have themselves had to face members of their own family being captured for the likes of SeaWorld. Calves are often separated from their mothers to be taken into captivity and raised. The capture itself is so horrific that this must surely be a traumatic event to happen to a community of orcas that are so close-knit. It never fails to shock me how people can expect these animals to live in such a tiny space and perform over and over again for the amusement of idiots who would rather go and see a miserable orca in captivity than go on a whale watching trip and witness them in their own environment. Everyone thinks that they are so "cute" performing their little tricks, but do those people never think about how unnatural it is? I'd much rather see an orca in the wild displaying its natural behaviour. Do trainers really think that an orca actually wants a head rub as a treat? What Tilikum done just displays what orcas do naturally; they often play with their prey such as seals, which unfortunately for them normally ends in them being thrashed around and killed. But at the end of the day, it's an instinct. And now the news that SeaWorld are undecided on Tilikum's future makes me sick. They've subjected him to so much already and yet he's still being punished.
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