Sex at Dawn

Exploring the evolutionary origins of modern sexuality.

Christopher Ryan, Ph.D. is co-author of Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality (HarperCollins 2010). See full bio

December 19, 2008, Evolutionary Psychology

Comments on "Traditional Marriage? Which Tradition?"

Traditional Marriage? Which Tradition?

By Christopher Ryan on December 19, 2008 in Sex at Dawn

Those arguing against allowing gay marriage often claim that doing so would "alter a definition of marriage that has been supported in every culture and every religion for some 5,000 years." Hogwash. Read More

Traditional Marriage

Submitted by Jim Akin on December 19, 2008 - 10:12am.

Fascinating stuff. It's long been clear to me that gender roles and even individual identity can be a lot more varied and elastic than the moralists/absolutists would have it. It's interesting to see that marital/mating/sexual norms are evidently just as fluid when human culture is considered in total.

Out of curiosity, were the extramarital affairs noted in the studies by Gregor and/or Dr. Jethá all strictly heterosexual?

Also, at the risk of oversimplifying, and of invoking an admittedly simplistic characterization: Do the roles assumed by the Two Spirited Ones described by de Gandovo suggest that butch-femme dynamics in gay couples are grounded in something fundamentally human? Are they possibly an adaptation to mirror and fit in with the norms of the "straight" society? Or are these characterizations perhaps too limiting to even be broadly applicable?

Gender vs. Sex

Submitted by Christopher Ryan on December 21, 2008 - 5:30am.

Excellent questions, Jim. The two studies I cited in the blog entry mention only heterosexual affairs, though in many parts of Africa (and the rest of the world), homosexual activity takes place between men who don't consider themselves to be "homosexuals" or what they're doing to be "homosexuality." Because cultural definitions are so, well, definitive, in these areas, it's often tricky to really get a handle on what people are up to. Your question re: gender identity is fascinating, and something I've wondered about, too. I can't offer any definitive response other than to say that gender roles are sometimes defined in ways that seem counter-intuitive (women as hunters, men as the "pretty" sex, women doing hard manual labor, etc.), suggesting that perhaps the butch-femme dynamic you mention is in fact a mirror of straight society. It would be great to hear from any GBLT readers who might be tuning in on these questions. A commenter to a previous post mentioned that s/he had noted that among gay/lesbian couples, it was normally the more feminine partner who made the most noise when having sex. I've never read anything scientific on that, but if true, it's fascinating, given the primate literature on female copulatory vocalization (I'll cover that in an upcoming post -- stay tuned!).

I think I saw that interview with Warren

Submitted by Lizz on December 22, 2008 - 11:09pm.

... and I most definitley gave the t.v. a quick blast of 'that's totall bull sh*t!'. Even if the traditionalists wanted to negate all of the examples you put out there ('cause you know those aren't 'real people' and definitely not 'good Christians'), the definition of traditional marriage has changed within the last couple hundred years of Westren society anyways. The best examples being miscegenation no longer being outlawed and women no longer being the property of their husbands. Not to mention such things as Boston marriages which have been going on since the time of the Founding Fathers.

This comment is very late,

Submitted by Anonymous on August 27, 2009 - 9:30am.

This comment is very late, but I am also interested in what Jim Akin mentioned about the dynamics of the relationship and if they mirror the butch-femme model.

I may have just joined into the study of the different kinds of sexual relationships that humans engage in, but I knew innately from the beginning that there was no set 'true' model. Nature is just too fluid for that.

This is a great article, thank you very much for the information!