An interview with men’s advocate Warren Farrell about gender roles, power, why men earn more, and campus rape. Read More
The entire problem is the white male's fault. Every
one else is a helpless dependent child.
The solution is the elimination of the white Christian
male. Then, white females and minority men (And other
women) can resume their peaceful loving existence.
The very incarnation of evil-the white male-should be
in these conversations about male disposability is who is seen to be to blame for this. Men work on oil rigs, are long haul truckers and combatants in war which means they're disposable. It isn't as if women set up these scenarios. Men hire men to work off-shore. Men start wars that other men fight. As a woman, it breaks my heart for the mothers (and fathers) of the men who die in combat. I don't know one mother who has lost a son who hasn't grieved his loss enormously.
So, I really don't get who this man is trying to blame with his rhetoric.
Why does anyone need to be blamed? How can you even blame individuals (or even a subset of the population) for the ways in which cultural norms have developed. If you really feel the need to pin blame somewhere, pin it on thousands of years of accumulated human history.
Are you asking me why? Because that is my question. When men talk about "men's issues" they bring up the fact that more men die of this and that...don't live as long as women, etc. as if it is the fault of women. It is an observation that leaves me wondering "what is your point?" There is no answer other than to have women do those same jobs and other than the off-shore drilling, women do, just not in the numbers men do. These jobs also pay a damn site better than being in the secretarial pool.
I'm genuinely asking who are they blaming and why? Women didn't set up the system. Men did. If you're complaining about how bad men have it, it mainly falls on deaf ears (of women) because we don't see you as having it that bad, at least in the aggregate.
Yes, there are some shitty women out there who use men. Guess what? There are some shitty men out there who use women. Why the endless merry-go-round of who has it worse or who IS worse? Doesn't fix things.
Women wanted the right to vote. The right to own property. The right to our own bodies. We fought for RIGHTS that we didn't have. Men seem to be retaliating against women for wanting to be EQUAL at least in the eyes of the law.
You didn't anwser the question:
Why do you need someone to blame for gender roles?
Gender roles evolved and were at some point crucail for the survival of our species.
Women are to blame to the same extend as men are to blame for the supposed Patriarchy.
Even if you could blame one gender more than the other, it wouldn't matter.m Those who did it have been dead for a long time.
It's time to start telling the truth about the genders: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4zSRkBMPng
Why do you need to asign blame?
because I was ASKING the question.
I am asking WHY ASSIGN BLAME? I'm not assigning blame.
I think you are misunderstanding then. Men's rights people blame *society* and cultural attitudes not women.
She's not misunderstanding (you're being too generous). She's deflecting.
Feminists only want to reinforce the female victim narrative. So, whenever a fact about men being disadvantaged comes up, they defensively start asking "Who are you trying to blame? You can't blame women, men are the ones with all the power!" It's a way of turning the conversation back to "Men have all the power".
You'll notice how Monkey goes from asking "who is this guy trying to blame" to claiming she is asking "why assign blame?".
Deflecting in this way is just one of the ways feminists maintain their perspective that everything is worse for women - they defect, ignore, or erase any disadvantages men have, then claim that men don't have disadvantages.
It's all others fault!! It's always this way in this framework with other being not good or bad individuals, but classes which are, on one side, the extreme evil which the only purpose is to oppress the other classes that are, in other hand, the incarnation of goodness.
"So, I really don't get who this man is trying to blame with his rhetoric."
No, you are not asking "Why assign blame?", you're asking "Who is this man trying to blame?" - As though it's implied that "this man" is trying to blame someone.
In the U.S., women have had the right to vote since 1920. Men got this earlier, in 1870, but in return were required to register for conscription. 100.000 American soldiers, almost all of them men, died in WW1 and 200.000 were wounded. 400.000 American soldiers, almost all of them men, died in WW2 and 670.000 were wounded.
Men are -still- required to register for the draft in exchange for their right to vote, and with tensions with Russia building, one might very reasonably worry about whether that draft will be called or not.
American women have been having it objectively better than American men with regards to voting for almost a century.
Roe vs Wade was over 40 years ago. Women have had 100% right to their own body since then. It is illegal in all states to circumcise a girl. I agree with this, because it is her body, her choice.
It is not just legal, but in fact common practice to circumcise boys. He does not have the right to his own body.
American women have been having it objectively better than American men with regards to the rights over their own bodies for over 40 years.
Women have had extensive rights to property for over a century. In fact, they are better protected then men are.
As a woman, they can choose to give up an unwanted child after it is born for adoption if they decide they are not "ready" to be a mother. As a man, you have no option to "opt out" of parenthood in the way that a woman does, even after the child is born (at which point "her body" doesn't factor into it whatsoever).
Men are liable for child support for the next 18 years, whether they like it or not, but women are not. As a result of this, there are 15 year old boys paying child support to their 36 year old rapists!
American women have been having it objectively better than American men with regards to rights of property for over a hundred years.
You asked who was to blame for this. I think it is illustrative that you come to ask who is to blame when the article you are replying to makes no mention of this topic.
The Men's Human Rights Movement is not seeking to find who is "to blame", nor are we seeking vengeance. Moreover, we are not about forcing women to register for the draft, about allowing circumcision of girls or about forcing women to keep children they do not want.
What we want is to stop men from being forced to register for the draft, to allow boys to decide about what happens with their genitalia themselves, rather than having it be decided for them, and about allowing men to decide that they are not ready to be a father just yet.
These rights that we ask for are the same rights that women have already had for at least 40 years. Women fought for rights they did not have and fortunately that fight got them exactly what they wanted and more. Now men too want the same freedom and self determination that women have had for decades.
I think a more pertinent question than "who is to blame" is "why would you oppose men getting those same rights"? Is it retaliation because women could not legally get an abortion in the 50's of the previous century? Why must men who were not even born when Roe vs Wade was decided, suffer for that?
I'm gonna kill you because you killed my brother. Well, I killed your brother because you killed my brother. And around and around it goes.
I'm not going to argue about this with anybody any more because it is obvious some people just want to be angry and blame others and not really think about the issue.
Wars are started by men. Wars are mainly fought by men. If we weren't in a war, women wouldn't be able to shame men into fighting. Again, like I've said numerous times THERE ARE SHITTY WOMEN IN THIS WORLD. But men dying in wars and in dangerous jobs is not the fault of women. So why continue to bring up this issue?
Ok, so women can now vote and own property and have the right to their own body. Yay! That's what we were fighting for. Men already have these rights and to now say that women get MORE benefit from voting? You lost your credibility there. I'm one person with one vote and so are you. Male or female. How do I get more from my one vote than you? Circumcision? Really? This is the same as laws being passed that prevent a safe abortion or access to birth control to prevent the need for an abortion in the first place? Honestly?
I get that you're angry but you need to find another direction to aim your anger. I don't want more than you, but I also don't want less than you. I just want to be equal. And, for the most part I feel I am so I don't march in the streets or go to rallys or whatever. If men are getting a bad deal, I'd like to think I'd be among the first to try to change that. I want EVERYONE to have equality. Nothing MORE, nothing LESS.
I'm not sure who you are replying to here. Your post has nothing to do with the one you are replying to.
Since most voters are women, why do you say that men start wars and women do not?
The ultimate responsibility rests with voters. So both men and women are responsible.
Somehow replied to the wrong comment
"That's what we were fighting for. Men already have these rights and to now say that women get MORE benefit from voting? You lost your credibility there. I'm one person with one vote and so are you. Male or female. How do I get more from my one vote than you? "
No. As a male, I get one vote AND I HAVE TO REGISTER FOR THE DRAFT. As a female, you get one vote AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO REGISTER FOR THE DRAFT. If you can't see how you have it better in that regard, you are hopeless.
Yes, circumcision. As in GENITAL MUTILATION. Oh wait, I forget, you need to add the word "female" in front of "infant genital mutilation" in order for a feminist to recognize it as a violation of body integrity.
You may have to register but there is no draft in this country at this time. Even if we had a draft, I can't and don't see this as women forcing this on men issue. And, I don't start wars with my vote. I vote for a politician who then does what he/she wants. I didn't want to go to war in Afghanistan or Iraq and most of my female friends didn't either. Men - George W Bush and Dick Cheney lied to congress to get them to go along with the war. Men started the Vietnam war. Men started WWI and WWII and ust about every other war. To drag some females who shamed men into fighting is BLAMING WOMEN for the least little reason. Again, if there wasn't a war there wouldn't be women acting shitty because of it.
Circumcision, at least the religious one is carried out by a rabbi which last I heard were overwhelmingly male and ONLY male up until recently.
You, as a father can stop a circumcision from happening. I don't see this as a women forcing something on men issue.
All these issues that were brought up in the article may be in need of fixing but couching it in an ANTI-FEMINIST rhetoric doesn't help the cause because it does make it seem like women caused the problem and therefore women should fix the problem when it is the other way around. Women getting rights, the rights I laid out, don't hurt men. They simply help women. End of story. Everyone hopefully benefits and I think MOST men see it that way. Their mothers, sisters, daughters and all other women are simply equal to their sons and brothers and fathers.
Last time I'll say it: If you don't want men dying in wars, being circumcised, needing better health care, then do something about it and stop blaming feminists for your problems. This is my ONLY point. Feminism has nothing to do with any of this except as someone to blame.
"Even if we had a draft, I can't and don't see this as women forcing this on men issue."
It's not a women forcing this on men issue.
But so flipping what?
It's STILL a men's issue. It's STILL a violation of men's right to their bodies and their freedom. It's STILL important and it STILL deserves to be addressed.
Same with war in general, same with circumcision, same with fathers rights and men's health. It doesn't matter that it isn't the fault of women. Not at all. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Red herring.
The reason it's couched in such ANTI-FEMINIST rhetoric is because feminists like you CONTINUALLY claim that there are no men's issues, that men are always privileged and never disadvantaged, and that we, as a society, should forever and always be engaged in making women's lives better while ignoring problems men face.
Erin Pizzey tried to gain attention for male victims of domestic violence - she was harassed and had her DOG KILLED by feminists. In Toronto a men's group tried to have a lecture on a college campus on men's issues - feminists pulled a fire alarm in order to disrupt it. Another men's issues seminar was scheduled and feminists sent death threats to the hotel it was to be hosted at.
Feminism is a problem because it doesn't just seek to benefit women, you're a problem because you can't accept the fact that there are ways in which men are disadvantaged and those disadvantages can and should be addressed. You just derail the conversation, whining that women aren't to blame.
So women aren't to blame, what is your point?
that feminists have done. That is bad. I'm not now and have never been a person, woman, feminist who has ever said men don't have issues.
It is suprising that feminists are doing those things because they don't need to.
Men -- you're in charge. If you want to stop wars, you can. If you want to stop circumcision, you can. If you want to do anything, you can. Women can't stop you. Most will applaud you.
You say I'm the problem when I'm just trying to understand. Women aren't in charge so I don't understand why feminists would kill a woman's dog for her opinions. That seems like a false flag to me, but that's another issue.
I don't want to be "the problem." I want to be the solution. I want men to feel wanted and equal. It's just that I don't understand why they don't. All I want as a feminist is equality. And, as I said, nothing more and nothing less. I don't want you to suffer for me to have more.
The reason I scoffed at the circumcision issue is because women are actually harmed by genital mutilation. We can no longer have an orgasm. I've known a lot of men sexually and almost all were circumsized. All of them could orgasm. It is a false comparison. PLUS, if you don't want them, you can prevent them very easily.
Do you see the difference in what I'm saying vs what you're saying? Yes, men have real issues. I acknowledge that. What I don't get is the attack on women. Attacking feminism is just a way to attack women politically correctly. Women have even been so propaganized against feminism that they don't know what it means and are starting to deny they're a feminist. WTF? It is a movement that may have outlived its usefulness and if so, let's retire it. But, just as men have real issues, so do women and that is all feminism is working for. Unfortunately men are to blame for a lot of the issues that face women. Fathers are generally the ones who have their daughters circumsized. Mothers go along with it or they're killed. We're never going to agree on the degree of the problems faced by men vs those faced by women...because YOU'RE IN CHARGE. Like I said before, if you want to change things then change them. Women aren't stopping you. A few crazy ones may be but they don't have any power. Killing a dog just says CRAZY, not powerful.
Classic - feminists make false claims, when called out on those false claims they say "Attacking feminism is just a way to attack women politically correctly." Just another feminist lie.
Feminism is not about gender equality. More and more people are starting to see this and are therefore renouncing the feminist label in favor of ACTUAL equality.
Kind of puts the "patriarchy" into perspective, doesn't it? They assume men being critical of feminism is a way to attack women in a politically correct fashion (as if being critical of feminism is currently politically correct. Some nations are pushing for laws against such things), because that's what patriarchy is for them... the politically correct way to attack men.
Indeed. It reveals even more about their perspective: Feminists subscribe to a conspiracy theory (that men have intentionally subjugated women) while pretending to only be concerned with the well-being of women. So, when they say "Women's issues exist and should be addressed," what they mean is "Women's issues are mens fault and men need to take the blame and fix the problems men have created."
Hence, when someone says "Men's issues exist and should be addressed," what feminists hear is "Men's issues are women's fault and women need to take the blame and fix the problems women have created."
Because they try to disguise blaming men for everything as concern for women, they assume anyone showing concern for men is actually blaming women for everything (hence Happy Monkey's defensiveness, even though nowhere in the comments or article is there any mention of blaming women or feminism for men's issues).
That victim narrative, the idea that men have knowingly and intentionally oppressed women since the dawn of time, is the core of feminism. Feminists get so bent out of shape by anyone showing concern for men because acknowledging that men have disadvantages means having society question (and eventually discard) the "female oppression male privilege" model.
You really seem determined to impute malicious intent (accusations of blaming women) on the men in this thread.
The only person I really see blaming anyone is you--men fight in wars, but who starts the wars? MEN! Men work dangerous jobs, but who hires them? MEN!
There isn't a single comment in this thread that you seem to think is blaming women for these problems that is ACTUALLY blaming women.
>Last time I'll say it: If you don't want men dying in wars, being circumcised, needing better health care, then do something about it and stop blaming feminists for your problems. This is my ONLY point. Feminism has nothing to do with any of this except as someone to blame.<
Again, you are feeling blamed. I wonder why, when no one has seemed to blame you for anything much. The primary criticism of you in this thread is that feminists like yourself refuse to acknowledge these problems--or refuse to acknowledge them as systemic, and therefore everyone's responsibility to fix, regardless of who is or isn't to blame for them.
You duck and weave and change your tune every five seconds. I would guess that if women did not have the vote, you would consider it an injustice that men have some grand form of power that women do not. Then, when the fact that women HAVE the vote comes up and therefore women are just as responsible for the decisions of government (like going to war) as men, you frame the vote as this measly, ineffectual thing that doesn't give you any power at all.
And then you wonder why people are starting to dislike feminists.
First, I'd like to say I'm a big fan of your blog and videos, Karen.
Secondly, I think it's interesting to consider the repeated assertion that men have ALL THE POWER. If men have all the power in our society, and have always had all the power, then isn't every single feminist victory attributable to men? I mean, if women really have never had any power, it must have been men who gave them the vote, and men who gave them their reproductive rights, and men who gave them the right to own property and file for divorce.
If it's true that men have, and have always had, all the power, then women can't possibly be given any credit for any of the progress we've ever made as a society (they were, after all, totally powerless).
Who has it worse, dog people or cat people. Who is the better person, a dog person or a cat person. Whichever side you're on you're never going to believe anything the other side says and after this post I will no longer respond to or even read any more of your posts. No one said men have ALL THE POWER and women have never had ANY power. This is you reading into this what you want me to be saying.
Women have been a lot more powerless than men historically but who cares now? I don't. Yes, we've been able to win our rights and freedoms working with men. We have to -- we're in this together.
If you can't see that I'm not against you then you truly are a sad human being who just hates and can't reason on your own.
You keep saying I'm not answering your questions or as Karen said I keep changing my tune when I've been singing the same song here over and over to the point I'm getting tired of myself.
You are the one who can't acknowledge that I've answered your question. You are the one who can't get through your head that I'm not a man hater. That goes against your worldview. Anyone who identifies as a feminist has to be exactly the same as the feminist man hater you have in your head. Anything contrary to that you can't accept.
Well, whatever. This whole exchange has left me sad and even more worried for the state this country is in. If we can't acknowledge that there is work to be done on BOTH sides, then we're doomed. I'm just going to go live my happy life the way I've chosen to. I'll continue to do what I can to help the men in my life live a better life and the women, too.
How is it equality for men to have to sign up for the draft but women don't, yet both men and women get to vote?
...still waiting for a monkey to come along and explain how "Men can vote and men have to register for the draft" is equal to "Women can vote and women don't have to register for the draft".
not that I think you really care is: DO AWAY with having to register for the draft. I'm with you on this one. I don't get why men have to register. We have a volunteer army. Both men and women are in it. If you don't want to register then have the people in charge (congress) to pass a bill doing away with it.
It isn't equal, but as I said, we don't have a draft so just having to register seems rather pointless.
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It can take a radical reboot to get past old hurts and injustices.