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Our culture promotes the myths that all boys want to lose their virginity to the first willing girl and that virginal teen boys are somehow ridiculous; they deserve teasing or shaming. Read More
is this a trick
i dont know what your talking about, but if you switched it to the girls perspective this would make more sense
Is this a trick You're
Is this a trick
You're comment just illustrated the point. There is a serious cultural shift that undermines everything gentlemanly and ladylike in our society. The fact that the accepted stereo type by the vast majority of people is one in which a boy will say or do anything to get laid is simply insulting to males in general. What was a joke at our expense, became the established norm, and thinking no more of an adolescent male is not considered rude or insulting. For shame. In todays society, being a healthy male just means you are consistently the butt end of jokes 9 out of 10 times (the only exception is when it is some jacka$$ who's just being ignorant and rude, I'm talking about accepted mainstream comedy here) and we've put up with it for a long time because we can take it. It's getting tiresome now.
To think that either sex is more or less sexually aggressive and insensitive these days is just plain ignorant. Just saying so is insulting and very confusing for impressionable minds in a formative stage in their development as people. People are people, stop generalizing others in order to satisfy your own view of the world.
And you don't need to look very far to see who is digesting the bulk of sexual content in the mainstream. Why is it that the most scantily clad, sexually explicit pop stars are labeled role models for girls between the ages of 12 and 16? It is sickening. And to make matters worse, when girls start showing up to school wearing skirts that show off what colour underwear they are wearing, somehow it is fault of the "kids of today" with their lack of morals etc.... The generation that came before has all but bankrupted class and morality with their shameless attempts at selling us their crap, and somehow the kids of today are the problem?!
I could go on.... i won't. Have a nice day. :)
Myths
I understand the confusion. I was startled by the responses when I did the research. But it's true, some guys DO care about their virginity and they are tired of being made fun of. Your response is why the myth keeps perpetuating. We find it almost impossible to believe anything other than the traditional stereotypes about guys. We need to listen to the boys. They have much to say!
Balancing concerns
The traditional dynamic between men and women, men ask/women choose, has been changing for centuries. We may be at the tipping point in our history right now where that tradition ends. For some time women have been taking a more active role in starting relationships. Why should we be surprised that this behavior has trickled down to the daughters of those women as they model their behaviors on their mothers? And why should we be surprised that some of those young women take matters to extremes and behave as Dr. Leigh research suggests? There is no doubt that the advice she gives, that we as parents redouble our effort and rethink our emphasis with having the facts-of-life talk is timely. We need to remember that it our job to provide our young people with the skills they need to be successful. In the fast pace of our society we need to constanly adjust what we emphasize about sex and relationships.
Needs to be talked about !
Dr Jenn is right I was one that was not ready for sex. The girl I was with was sleeping around with everyone she could. When I found out it was devastating. I never had any "talk" with parents or anybody its an embarrassing thing to talk about. It should be known that I know more and more girls are getting aggressive because I have been dating. I have taken a stand and have talks with my cousins that don't have anything to go on but what friends or the TV has to offer. Personally I think these TV shows make it seem like girls are worse than guys anymore. This needs to be talked about more and kids need someone like Dr Jenn to talk with. Jenn needs her own show to help kids and parents with lots of these things !!!
"V-card collecting" as it was
"V-card collecting" as it was put in the article is the best thing that can happen to many shy, socially inept teens. Just because some guys fail at saying "no" is no reason to condemn this practice.
Same should be true for girls
Same should be true for girls / women. Just because they have a hard time saying no...
What a joke.
thought you were talking about girls
but this is all boys all the time--wassup?
I smell a double standard
""V-card collecting" as it was put in the article is the best thing that can happen to many shy, socially inept teens."
So you're saying that it would also be extremely good for guys to do this to very shy girls? I know that you don't state a specific gender but the article is focusing on males who've lost theirs and I'm trying to stay on subject.
"A few boys reported they lost their virginity when intoxicated to girls who mistook their body's normal arousal reactions as consent."
Can't the males press rape charges to this since the didn't consent?
Dear Double Standard, I
Dear Double Standard, I didn't write in the article that V Card collecting is a good thing. Some one left that as a comment. I don't believe it is healthy behavior for boys or girls. Using people to "put another notch on your belt" isn't respectful.
Yes, one would think that the boys could press charges. But they don't. That's one of the reasons I wrote the blog. Boy's aren't seen as being "rape-able" nor is their virginity seen as something special as female virginity is. I promised the boys I interviewed I would help start the conversation about male virginity in hopes that boys will be able to have fuller expressions of themselves in the future. I appreciate the opportunuty to open that conversation here.
I quoted an above user who
I quoted an above user who said there is no reason to condemn the practice of girls taking away the virginity of unwilling males. All I did was point out the double standard in what the poster said.
"Boy's aren't seen as being
"Boy's aren't seen as being "rape-able" nor is their virginity seen as something special as female virginity is."
What? Are you kidding me? This is what you've gleaned from watching television right?
Thank you so much for this
Thank you so much for this comment. I agree with you completely on this. The shame is hard enough for girls who have to step forward on rape charges, I can only imagine the difficulties it would present for a boy.
Personally I think girls are also damaged by this stereotyping of male virginity-- for centuries the symbolism of women's virginal honor/purity has put taboos and bondage on them-- and what do those stereotypes say about men? That they are animals who can't control themselves, and therefore the onus falls upon the woman to stay pure? I guess this views hurt society in general.
I have quite a few older male friends, guys that I would turn to for advice when dating. They always warned me about only becoming sexually active when I was ready. A few even talked about being promiscuous for years because it was expected. They said it was even exciting at first but how later they felt depleted, even a bit ashamed, because all of those relationships sort of died. I was surprised to hear this because up until that point I had viewed adult males as wanting sex 24/7.
wow
I didn't think it was that common,
and here I've always thought I was a weirdo.
右ight on the nail. You 知now
右ight on the nail. You 知now 何hat shocks 僕e though is that this was written by a 女oman.
OK but ...
I agree with the author's impulse to bring attention to an issue that might not otherwise get any, but I'd bet the farm that far more adolescent male suffering is due to the fact that nobody's collecting their V-card. Not just virginity, but lack of sexual opportunity causes a great deal of frustration and anxiety for adolescent boys, whose bodies are in sexual overdrive. The conflict between the biology of an adolescent boy and a culture that tells him it's too early for sexual relationships creates far more pain, I'd wager.
Here! here!
In my experience, Christopher Ryan has this one right. I am sure that many men look back at there first time and say, "Gee, I wish that had been better." I am a 49 year-old male. I lost my virginity when I was 17 to a somewhat homely 15-year-old girl, whom I liked but never loved. Two other early experiences were with women who would now be called "cougars"--women who were about double my age. Today those two experiences might be considered unacceptable or even abusive, but they never felt that way to me. Sure, I wish my first time had been with my soulmate, but that does not mean that I have ever regretted, even for a moment, my time with my homely 15 year-old and my two cougars. Those experiences, though not necessarily spiritually fulfilling, were fun and (especially my experiences with the two older women) gave me the confidence I needed to approach, when I was 18, the woman who did become my soulmate and my wife of 25 years. So you earlier ladies who wanted to score with an inexperienced but eager 17/18 year-old me, I thank you from the bottom of my heart, eventhough our sex may not have been totally mind-blowing or spiritually uplifting. And, yes, I agree with Christopher Ryan that, for the overwhelming majority of males, a few consensual, mediocre sexual experiences in one's late teens and early 20s would be far less damaging than would be having no such early consensual sexual experiences.
I am an example of this...
I am a 28-yr-old male. I lost my virginity at age 23. I never felt comfortable telling people I was a virgin. I wasn't a virgin because of a lack of options like Christopher Ryan implies is the case with male virgins. I would have liked for this topic to be brought up more. I do wish that women would get back to romance and acting 'more properly' so that I, in turn, can do the same.
I think there are a lot of things assumed by people in their late teens and twenties. They assume that guys just want sex. Both sides. In my experience talking to people, they all say they want a fulfilling relationship (with few exceptions) but then they go and do what they are "supposed to" and find someone for only sex only to be disappointed in their decisions.
It seems like people have sex with others to get to know them instead of the way I prefer: get to know them, then have sex with them. If people try to get to know someone first, it is often assumed there is no physical interest. I think this is because of everything that Dr. Leigh mentions in this article.
Dr. Leigh, thank you for this insight. Some of the comments make me sad. We are all individuals. Stereotypes are only so accurate. I think we all need to realize that ALL boys don't like trucks, ALL girls don't like pink, All boys aren't just trying to get laid, ALL girls aren't looking for a husband. The sooner we all realize this, the sooner ANYONE can proudly be a virgin and those who don't want to be will be no more normal than those that do.
Thank you again Dr. Leigh for bringing up this important topic. I, for one, appreciate it very, very much.
Hi Dr Leigh, could you please
Hi Dr Leigh, could you please reference the study you mentioned? I'd like to read in more detail. Our church has a wonderful program for jr high age kids and I think this would be a great addition to the curriculum. Thank you.
Research Data
The study I refer to is the one I conducted for the contents of my book, "Laid or Loved? The Secrets Guys Wish You Knew About Being a Dream Girl Instead of a Just-In-His-Jeans Girl." I interviewed hundreds of guys from 23 different countries, ages 14-21, mostly via the Net, but some in person and over the phone. The study started as a simple look at what girls do that make a guy respect them. The more info that came back, the more surprised I was as to what guys REALLY think about respect, love, sex etc. The questions on the survey evolved to include topics I never thought about when I started out, such as male virginity.
The book is an excellent resource for teen girls (or guys!) to help them learn how to have more self-respect and how to show respect for others. It's full of quizzes and quotes and stories from guys. I feel very honored that so many guys (and girls!) helped with the study and were so frank in their answers. I have 63K friends on MySpace and became the unofficial relationship expert there for a while. I have not published the research itself, however I am more than happy to discuss it with you. I can also help you set up a program to help your teens. jennifer@drjennforgirls.com
This work is suspect without a feminist analysis
Ms. Leigh, I don't doubt that you are doing good work here, nor the need to destigmatize virginity for young men. However, could you please leave out the implicit criticism of female sexuality? The fact that you included the line "the majority of them wished that girls would go back to being more lady-like so they could go back to being more gentlemanly" without further examination gives the impression that you are more interested in fanning the flames of a moral panic than addressing substantive issues of teenage sexuality and self-esteem.
Young women are already bombarded with messages denigrating (if not demonizing) their sexuality, and they do not need these messages to be echoed from the realm of reputable psychology. Please take care to draw a distinction between young women being more comfortable with their selves, their bodies, and their sexuality (good) and the trend you've observed of "turning the tables" and treating virginal males as "conquests" (bad). Above all, please be sure to repudiate the notion that the solution to this problem is the reassertion of traditional gender roles, unless you want right-wing groups like Focus on the Family endorsing your work.
I would suggest skimming through a copy of Jessica Valenti's _The Purity Myth_ for more background on this perspective. I believe it would help flesh out the reasons why many of the statements made in this article are problematic.
Oh, and to those commenting that "V-card collecting" is great for socially-inept guys: You're simply restating the same simplistic "conventional wisdom" that Ms. Leigh's work explodes. Simply engaging in sex does not mean that there is mutual respect between the partners, and shy guys have emotional needs above and beyond mere physical ones just like everyone else. Yes, having someone consent to sex with you is a form of validation, but your self-esteem has to be in the toilet for sex-sans-respect to be a boost to your character. (It's not much different to how being groped at a party can improve your self-image---if your self-image were really, really sh**ty to begin with.)
"Ms. Leigh, I don't doubt
"Ms. Leigh, I don't doubt that you are doing good work here, nor the need to destigmatize virginity for young men. However, could you please leave out the implicit criticism of female sexuality? The fact that you included the line "the majority of them wished that girls would go back to being more lady-like so they could go back to being more gentlemanly" without further examination gives the impression that you are more interested in fanning the flames of a moral panic than addressing substantive issues of teenage sexuality and self-esteem."
I would just like to add that I completely agree with her on that point... As do most of the men that I know. The sexually aggressive woman of today is disturbing to the majority of us.
Fantastic
Thank you for talking about this taboo subject. What a breath of fresh air this post is. We often talk about the pressure on girls to have sex early but ignore the boys. People, no matter what gender or age, who choose not to have sex should not feel stigmatized and discussions like this open the door for more acceptance and understanding.
Leigh Ann Otte
Managing Editor
My Family Doctor magazine
Written by health-care providers for the general public.
Thank you so much for the
Thank you so much for the info Dr. Leigh. I have passed it on to our pastors and we will definitely keep your offer in mind!
To Daniel
Thank you for your comment. It is much appreciated. I am not at all against women expressing their sexuality and wish the world would accept that women's libido's are not to be feared or denigrated. However, I am not sure that feminism was ever about taking on the worst of male behavior then wearing it as a bad of honor. Which is what some young girls are doing. How one expresses their sexuality is what is important. Pushing yourself on another human being, whether you are a guy or a girl, isn't respectful and causes damage.
I am not attempting to flame a moral panic. However, parents do need to be educated about the new world our teens live in and the very real psychological dangers that new world brings for both our sons and daughters.
The hook-up generation may be seen to have liberated itself from the confines of repression, however, I am certainly seeing the damage done to our girls who have been sold the bill of goods that being F-able equals being love-able.
We still haven't grasped that respect must be the foundation of any relationship.
Unconscious biases
Ms. Leigh, you are right to address the issue of young people engaging in sexual relationships without the foundation of mutual respect and self-esteem, and feminism as a whole will support you in that goal. It is only the caricatured form of feminism, often invoked by its critics, that supports women acting as cavalierly with the other sex as many men have.
However, I must reiterate that this research touches on a subject area that has a long and difficult history of shame-based messages directed at women, and you seem to be laboring without a firm awareness of this, which leaves you open to unconsciously reflecting such messages in your work. I mean, you just used the term "hook-up generation" offhandedly, which is fairly loaded terminology that many consider to be biased in itself (being a staple of moral panics over the issue). It's like if you were commenting on, say, abortion, and you used the term "partial-birth abortion"; you'd have tipped your hand right there.
Please at least consult with someone at a Woman's Studies department at your local university, someone who has a deep awareness of these issues and can point out these sorts of unconscious biases in your work. Please don't let the merits of your work be overshadowed by being seen to advocate for "the good old days" of gender relations---because believe me, many, many people will want to do just that.
Dear Daniel
Daniel I hear your deep concerns about my views on this topic. I thank you for sharing them with me. You are right in that labels are tricky and often infer a meaning not intended. My use of the terminology "hook-up generation" was not to imply any moral judgment. I work with teens and young college girls and it's a phrase that they use. I will think next time before I use it.
My undergraduate work was done at Mills College, an all women college. I asssure you, I am steeped in Women's Studies. If my blog has offended you, it was not my intention. My intention is to bring awareness that 1) some,(not all) boys are damaged after their first sexual encounter, 2) our culture promotes the stereotype that male virgins are nerdy, silly boys and 3)there is no safe outlet for boys to talk about male virginity.
The boys yearned for young girls to be more self-respectful and respectful of others, in many aspects of their lives, thus the term "lady-like" was used. It was not meant that they need to curtail being assertive, wonderful, successful young women who can not express themselves sexually respectfully.
I hope that clarifies some things for you. If not, I am happy to listen to any further comments. I hear your keen interest in the topic of gender roles and women's rights. I appreciate your effort to share it.
No offense taken
No offense was taken, Ms. Leigh. It all comes down to how the history and state of gender relations in this country has poisoned the air, so to speak, of discussion on the subject.
(It's not much different than the pitfalls of a discussion on race. If one is not familiar with the history of racism, and race relations in general, it's quite easy to say something that is innocuous on its face but is in fact hurtful to others. The larger context has to be acknowledged for real progress to be made.)
Another thing to bear in mind is that our society, our culture, as it stands, does not yet have a firm grasp on the idea of young people making responsible, emotionally healthy decisions on sexuality (aside from abstinence). People understand old-school dating/courtship; people understand hormonal teens engaging in "hook-up culture" and "screwing like rabbits." People don't really understand teens managing their sex lives with the maturity and respect normally expected of an adult.
Which is why when the young men you've spoken with use the term "lady-like," it is probably because they are familiar with how relationships developed in the old days (from movies/stories/etc.), they see the advantages of mutual respect and "getting to know each other" beforehand, and they want to attach an easy handle to that idea. They certainly don't mean to endorse the restrictive gender norms often associated with the term "lady" and traditional courtship (if they are even aware of these), but they don't have any better example to refer to, so they go with one that has this heavy cultural baggage. You could certainly help keep the reader on-track by clarifying what "lady-like" is supposed to mean in this context, rather than let the broader cultural baggage slip in quietly. The way this term was used in the article made it ripe for a right-wing pull quote.
In any event, I understand the intentions of your work here, and I support them; I myself am familiar with the pressures and stigmatization surrounding the virginity of young men, and how this can lead them to make bad decisions. It is the presentation, not the substance, with which I was taking issue. My study of feminism has sensitized me to these sorts of concerns, and I wanted to make sure you were aware of them.
Thank you for replying to my comments, and I wish you the best in helping young women make healthy and responsible choices in their lives.
Hi Jennifer, I am a 27 year
Hi Jennifer,
I am a 27 year old male psychology student from Europe and I am glad that you adress this topic. I felt sexualr pressure all my live especially when I studied in the US. I had my first sexual encounter when I was 13 years old and had some more. I already felt pressured then. I was never really able to enjoy sex so far in my life and I think it's very important to talk about that. I went to bed with some girls because I felt I had to as a man.
I think male virginity, male sexual problems (besides impotence) and involuntary celibacy are important topics but in the age of feminism male problems do not seem to matter. Especially taboos lie male virginity or males not wanting sex.
Sincerily,
Teen Male Virginity
Although I'm an old guy now, your reasoning about male virginity as a teenager rings true. It was true even in the 1950's, but the pressure must be even more intense today. I avoided the issues you mentioned and lost it with a pro (as in prostitute) who was much older than me. Maybe this is a better way to go than having all those issues with a teenaged girl (who has a lot of issues herself) plus all the fear and self doubts brought on by rejection. For boys, I think older women (not necessarily pros) are probably the answer. It is a tragedy in this society that the male physical sexual peak is probably between 18 and 21 - or maybe it isn't. I'm not sure. Anyway, from what I've recently read, it is only just now that real research is being devoted to female sexuality instead of just extrapolating results from studying males. This, I expect, will be very helpful for kids who are confused about their feelings.
I think that today's teen already has so much more access to information about sex than we had back in the 50's that they can make much better decisions and be much more open than was possible in the past. They do have to know how to separate myth from reality, however. Especially when using the Internet.
PS: Nice blog!
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