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Early in the twentieth century, L. P. Benezet, superintendent of schools in Manchester, New Hampshire, performed an outrageous experiment. He prohibited the teaching of arithmetic in the first five grades (grades 1-5) in some of the elementary schools in Manchester's poorest neighborhoods. Read More















Brilliant Post, Peter
Thanks so much for this post, Peter.
As a certified teacher, I, too, wonder why I never heard of L.P. Benezet. Until now.
Teachers Don't Know Math - Absolutely Correct!
This problem is enormous. Teachers don't understand the material they are teaching, and so they can't answer questions from intellectually curious students. Instead, they shut down that kind of thought.
Case in point:
Some years ago, my (now ex-) wife was involved in a "trivia night" fundraiser at her elementary school, and they wanted me on their "teacher team" to round out their knowledge. They had almost everything covered except some technology-related topics and I was an IT guy. In round four, my moment to shine arrived, as the category was "Math & Science" and one of the questions was, "give the first five digits of pi." I quickly said, "3.1415." The 9 teachers at the table ignored me and wrote down "22/7" on scrap paper and began to divide it out. I observed this quietly at first, assuming that 22/7ths gave the right answer for the first 5 digits, but it doesn't. It gives something like 3.1427. I said, "Whoops, that won't work." They ignored me and consulted among themselves, concluding that they had all done the division properly on 22/7ths out to five digits. I said, "That's not right, it's 3.1415."
They shot me insolent looks and one said, "We're math teachers. This is what the book says and this is what we're teaching the students." I said, "The TEXTBOOK in school says that?" "Yes, it does." I thought, "No wonder we graduate generations of ignorant boobs, the book is wrong." But the more I thought about it, the more I found it unlikely that the book contained this error. They wrote down "3.1427" or whatever on our answer sheet and I doggedly insisted that their answer was wrong. I explained that pi was equal to the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter, and after an uncertain pause, one of the teachers summoned this fact from her vague recollection of her lesson plan: "Pi is an irrational number, so it can't be a ratio." The other teachers at the table exchanged knowing glances and murmured with approval with that "A-ha! Gotcha!" look on their faces, as they recalled that same fact and found their colleague's logic unimpeachable.
I pointed out that an irrational number was a number that could not be expressed as a ratio of integers, and that 22/7 was a ratio of integers, and so it was THEM who were clearly wrong, because the circumference and diameter of a circle are real numbers, not integers. There was apparently some confusion since they weren't entirely sure what an integer was, but when one of them remembered she triumphantly told me that she just had her class full of 5th graders calculate the area of a circle whose diameter was 10, and 10 is an integer, so HA! At this point I realized I was in the company of idiots. My ex-wife, who was extremely argumentative with me most of the time, wisely kept quiet. She knew I was smarter than her cohorts and probably right.
The debate continued, and one of the teachers finally cut me off and said, "I'm sorry, what's your background?" I said, "I'm a software engineer." The teacher said, "Degree?" I said, "English." She smiled and said, "I can settle this." She called over a friend who was collecting answer sheets, and said to the friend, "Sally, this gentleman thinks pi is not equal to 22/7, what do you think?" Sally looked at me with sympathy and said, "Of course it is. I just read that in Joseph's book the other day." (Joseph is her son at the school). I insisted they were wrong and explained why, and while she looked confused and insecure upon hearing my explanation, she finally cut me off and said, "I'm sorry, but I'm a civil engineer, and math is my job. Pi is 22/7ths."
At this point I began to lose my patience. I said, "There is no way that textbook says it's 22/7ths. Somebody go get a copy." My wife volunteered to run to her classroom and retrieve the textbook.
Despite Sally's authority, I basically bullied the teachers into begrudgingly writing down my answer, and we turned it in. When the round finished, the MC announced the answer, and the answer was that pi is equal to 22/7ths, or 3.1427 or whatever. They all turned to me with furious indignation and practically screamed, "WE TOLD YOU!!!!!"
I gritted my teeth and said, "They. Are. WRONG. Who wrote the questions?" They said, "Sally!"
God save us.
A great murmur arose at a few other tables as well, and my wife returned with the text book. The teacher with whom I had been butting heads the most grabbed it, thumbed through to the area of a circle chapter, jabbed her finger at a sentence, and shoved the book across the table at me. The sentence said, "Pi is an irrational number approximately equal to 22/7ths." The teacher sat back, crossed her arms triumphantly, and said, "I hope they taught you to read with your English degree." I read it, and slid the book back across and said, "They also taught us to read the footnotes." As she read looked back at the page, the blood drained from her face. At the end of the sentence was a little "1" in superscript, and dutifully noted in the footnote were the first 20 digits of the actual value of pi.
Of which the first five are 3.1415.
As if on cue, the MC then said, "We've got a correction on the 'pi' question, apparently there's been confusion, but we will now be accepting 3.1415 as a correct answer as well." I argued that 3.1427 was NOT CORRECT and shouldn't be accepted, but I was advised by my wife to accept the victory, such as it was, and let it go. Our table sat in sullen silence for a few moments, with the open math book still open before us.
I couldn't help myself. I said, "So, you teach math to future civil engineers, huh?"
It was a funny story I used to enjoyed telling, until several years later when a bridge spontaneously collapsed in Minneapolis, killing a half dozen people.
pi and twenty-two sevenths
Your story about teachers absolutely convinced that pi was 22/7 reminded me of a chemistry teacher I used to work with at the Fieldston School in New York City some years ago. First, in case you don't know, Fieldston was and is an elite school among elite schools. This is the exact opposite of the "poor" schools that have been discussed here. The chemistry teacher that I worked with there calmly explained to me one afternoon (I was a physics teacher there at the time) that pi was exactly 22/7, and he used this as a bonus question on his chemistry exam! He knew this mathematical trivia with great certainty just like the teachers you encountered. This does not make him an idiot or them "idiots". They and he were seriously deluded by "common knowledge" acquired outside the textbooks. This pi problem appears to have been some sort of math "urban legend" for a while. The textbooks were all very clear that the value of 22/7 was only an approximation for pi, but somehow teachers and students were telling each other "off-textbook" that 22/7 really was pi. In other words, he didn't just think that this was a calculational convenience. He had learned the "legend" somewhere that pi, the quitessential irrational, transcendental number, was actually equal to a simple fraction. It took a bet of buying beers for the evening to convince him to look this up --and yes, he was quite sure, absolutely sure, that I would be buying beers in the end. He was genuinely, profoundly upset when the truth finally dawned on him. And I must re-iterate that this was an intelligent, well-educated science teacher working at a top-of-the-line private secondary school. Imagine how quickly this issue could be resolved today at the click of a mouse or the flick of a finger across a touchscreen.
Just thought I should add that to your tale of pi problems. It wasn't just them...
Today, this could be resolved
Today, this could be resolved in ten seconds by any idiot with a calculator, by simply pressing the "pi" button and looking at what it displays.
Unless, of course, the
Unless, of course, the calculator contained something like an early Pentium chip (with its flawed lookup tables), and had a lookup table with a value for pi based on 22/7.
"It was a funny story I used
"It was a funny story I used to enjoyed telling, until several years later when a bridge spontaneously collapsed in Minneapolis, killing a half dozen people."
That's one hell of a punchline. I didn't expect that :-)
children learn math naturally
My five children, all young adults now, all learned early and practical math from authentic, child-driven experiences. As pre-shcool children, they learned to count by setting the table (seven plates, seven forks, etc.); they sang counting somgs, counted their toys in "cleanup games." One son, at age two, was fascinated with the numbers on the mileage gauge in the car, watching from his car seat, as the numbers rolled in order. He soon learned to count to hundred. All five kids learned to read recipes, measurements, how to divide and how to double or triple a recipe's ingredients. They read maps and figured out the mileage (long before GPS). They all played various card games and board games that utilized numbers and/or reasoning skills -- Uno, Skip-bo, Pinochle. etc. As they became involved in local sports, they learned how to keep the scorebook and figure out out averages, etc. One son learned how to make a spreadsheet to keep track of his team's batting averages. They all kept their own ledgers in their bank savings accounts.
Math, when applied to resl-life situations, can be fun and interesting. The "book math" in public school often became boring and difficult at times.
I agree with the author's observations. When a child is motivated, then add in the "readiness" component for a particular math skill, he/ she will learn the math they need at that time.
How many of us. college-graduates, use all those 12- 16 years of math? "Math" time in the early grades can be better spent on ,any other practical situatios that involved common sense, logic, reasoning, and math skills.
Anne E, you have raised your
Anne E, you have raised your children well and by introducing math to them in every day life they are sure to remember what they have learned.
my personal opinion on maths
my personal opinion on maths in school is that they keep changing the way they teach it. for example my daughter who is 10 is being taught long division sums a totally different way from my wife and myself this means when she is stuck on a long division question it is hard for us to help her without confusing her, i just wish they would teach maths and arithmetic the old way because it works upvc windows
You're right about that
You're right about that. My parents were virtually unable to help me with my math assignment when I was a child and teen, and now my husband and I have trouble helping our son with his math homework. He was taught how to perform even the simplest of arithmetic exercises differently than we learned when we were young. It seems as if the methodology is changed from generation to generation in order to cause confusion in students and parents. It serves to further the feelings of math-phobia in the population.
This is a brilliant post yet
This is a brilliant post yet also so obvious.
If you focus purely on teaching a child how to do something without teaching them how to apply it then it is obviously of no use to them. On top of that, knowing how some forms of maths are applied helps people to visualise and memorise how it works. e.g. knowing that 3x3=9 would be so much easier to remember if you can visualise a square made up of 3 sides. This would also give the child a way of working out mathematics rather than simply memorising a times table.
A much more important problem is the fact that by sitting kids down with a pen and paper and trying to get them to learn something without explaining why, is just going to bore and frustrate them. Not to sound extremely cheesy but kids will certainly learn more if they can show an interest in the subject. The only way that kids will show an interest in the subject if is the subject is actually interesting.
When I was in school I used to hate maths and still do to some extent. Strangely though I can now pick up a newspaper and start playing sudoku without even considering this it is basically the same thing.
The fact is that using your brain to solve problems is fun and is something people of all ages are driven to get better at. On the other hand doing monotonous tasks is boring and will serve no purpose other than to cause people to resent education.
P.S.
Here is another point. Why do we teach how to find the dimensions of a circle yet we don't teach how to bleed radiators, put up shelves, manage finances or wire a plug? Yet again it goes back to both teaching people skills that interest them since they are in the world around them but also to teach them skills that they are almost certain to use.
fun math learning
For the stories of six boys from infancy to high school, learning math outside of school, as well as in school, watch the documentary Hard Problems: http://www.hardproblemsmovie.com/
Here's a comment from http://www.ted.com/talks/scott_kim_takes_apart_the_art_of_puzzles.html:
"When I started teaching my 8 home schooled children in the 1980's, I asked Scott what his advice for teaching math would be. He suggested (no surprise here!) to include lots of puzzles and games in the math curriculum. We followed his advice, buying various math manipulatives for thoughtful puzzle solving (often they were birthday presents). All our kids have excelled in math and I am ever grateful for the joy it brought to our math learning."
For anyone who'd like some free math puzzles, check out http://www.archive.org/details/amusementsinmath16713gut
url correction
The correct url for the Scott Kim talk is:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/scott_kim_takes_apart_the_art_of_puzzl...
Book: How Children Fail
This article and the 1930’s experiment by Benezet give the "what", and John Holt's classic book How Children Fail addresses the "how".
How Children Fail originated in a journal John Holt kept as he observed his own students (mostly fifth graders) and tried to puzzle out why they were capable of passing math tests (if given enough prep), but mostly incapable of using that math in real life (or even transferring it to other sorts of "school math" problems, or simply retaining it once they had finished with the test).
How Children Fail changed my life. I "dropped out" of college and went to work for Holt Associates for a time because of it.
Fast forward more than twenty years: my husband and I now have a ten-year-old and we are unschoolers. (What I mean by that is that we homeschool, but that it's our son who largely chooses what and how to learn.)
Not everyone who reads the book will be inspired to leave the world of conventional education, of course. (And I hope they don't - we need people in the schools who have read the book!)
I don’t know whether John Holt was ever aware of the experiment by Benezet (John was writing from his own experience). But I’m sure he would have been fascinated.
If you want to read How Children Fail, be sure to get the Revised Edition - it's maybe twice as long as the original (1964) edition and reflects the change in John's thinking over the following twenty years or so. Here’s a link to the Revised Edition (with a “Click to Look Inside” option):
http://www.amazon.com/Children-Fail-Classics-Child-Development/dp/020148...
Thanks for the article, Peter!
Elsa
What a great post! I first
What a great post! I first heard about Benezet from Alfie Kohn on Twitter. Fascinating experiment, and it is a shame more people don't know more about it.
I posted on the topic of math anxiety recently at my blog, Confessions of a Reluctant Teacher. I work as a tutor for an SAT prep company. Although I'm much stronger in verbal, I still have to cover the math portions of the SAT as well. I never took math in college, so I have only been taught as much math as they knew. Yet they would come to me with the hardest problems they encountered during practice tests, and I would almost always be able to figure them out. In my post, I write about why I think my students shut down in the face of really tough problems, and I don't--even though I did when I had to take the SAT as a high-school student.
I just discovered this blog, and I look forward to reading more!
math
I have subscribed to your blog and have really been enjoying it. We unschool three children. I recently wrote a post on my blog about my daughter- who by the way is a very right brained learner, and her sewing abilities and how it relates to her never being taught math. We learn what we need to know! http://pepperpaints.com/2010/02/03/but-no-one-taught-her-math/
Keep up the great work!!
I disagree with the "don't
I disagree with the "don't teach them math" advice. I'm still working on what I think the best solution to our dilemma (elementary teachers scared of math) is, but perhaps we should have math specialists from 1st grade on up, and have the elementary teacher learn with the kids. Maybe then in a decade or so, we'd have elementary teachers who knew how to play with math.
One of the commenters mentioned playing games. I think that's one of the best ways to learn math. Blink!, Set, Blokus are Quarto are great games that are math-related but don't focus on arithmetic skills. For that, try Yahtzee, or make up your own games with dice. Young kids also like one called Shut the Box. There are some good games at mathplayground.com, too.
Thanks for mentioning my blog. I'd like to mention the Let's Play Math! blog, and the Living Math website. Both have great resources for helping kids learn math.
I love much of what you say, Peter, but I think you're too dismissive of schools. Many families need them, and I think they could be transformed if we respected teachers and kids more.
I disagree with Sue
I disagree with Sue here
"...but I think you're too dismissive of schools. Many families need them, and I think they could be transformed if we respected teachers and kids more."
I don't think we can transform schools. Teachers, especially in the younger years are respected where i live, and they still don't do a good job of 'Éducating' the children. They do a great job, however of 'schooling' them. School was never set up to truly educate, just to give enough information to people so they could do what their employer asks them to. It never has and never will consistently grow young minds who can think for themselves, sure there are some every year, who despite being 'schooled' can still think for themselves, but this is by far the abnormal. More often than not this is an outcome of their home life, not their schooling.
I do agree however that some families need school, and 'schooling' is all they require of it. That's fine, just don't get the two ideals mixed up with each other. That's why we are unhappy with the "Education System" in our societies, we think it should be doing something it was never designed to do.
Accept it as it is, if you want to have truly educated people, don't send them to school, teach them at home, in the park, in the car, at the beach, at the shops, on a bike ride, give them meaning to what they are learning, and most importantly, give them space and time to contemplate and sort it all out in their own heads. Then and only then, there will be truly educated people in our society.
Hi Shell
"[School] never has and never will consistently grow young minds who can think for themselves, sure there are some every year, who despite being 'schooled' can still think for themselves, but this is by far the abnormal."
I would love to see your evidence for this claim
Look into the "factory-model
Look into the "factory-model education system," which details how our education model arose out of a need to train factory workers to meet certain basic prerequisites as able, obedient workers in factories. Hear that bell ringing? That's the sound of the conveyor belt starting up. Do some research and look into the history of the formation of this system that we've so readily accepted.
Look at Europe's system; they're decades ahead of us and have evolved far beyond our crippled factory model.
Hi Anonymous
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
Genetic accounts are not indicative of the relative merits of an issue
Many a medical advance was made during a war; this doesn't mean that war is good or that the medicine is bad.
Steve
Yet, medicine has changed
Yet, medicine has changed since the war, and ethical standards have been introduced.
Has our school model changed in the past 120 years? Really think about that. You're misunderstanding, though: I'm not arguing that the basis for the system is why it's wrong, I'm saying that the basis for the system tells us a lot about how this system works and the assumptions and goals that it has a foundation on.
You must remember school? It's a 30-student-per-class assembly line, and continues to be. Our system is crippling to child development. The ideal example of this is the multiple choice test. Europe has simply moved so far beyond this .. The reason why they're able to excel in maths/sciences is because they don't use a factory, multiple-choice, restricted thinking, rote memorization model like we use.
Redesigning Education: Rethinking the School Corridor
Education reform is in the air and taking root in thousands of classrooms across the country. From overhauling No Child Left Behind to closing poorly performing schools and raising student expectations, the push for change is powerful. Yet, the space where most learning takes place--the school and classroom--has changed little over the last 200 years.
http://www.fastcompany.com/1598539/re-designing-education-trung-le?partn...
Schooling children
I think your comment was the most enlightening thing I've heard in years and I want to thank you. Sincerely, Lisa
Hi Peter
You may have missed it , but following your request for documentary evidence of "fantasy play", here are some more videos of "little actors and directors":
http://vimeo.com/channels/act2cam
I hasten to add, I am able to facilitate this kind of work because I am a specially trained and very experienced teacher, who loves working with children (just like most other teachers in the school environment).
The content of the work is entirely decided by the young people, who also act and work behind the camera, under the expert guidance of two teachers.
I hope these videos serve to open your eyes to some of the emormous amount of positive, child-centric work that goes on in schools
So now I've shown you some documentary evidence of what real teaching is like, can you provide similar evidence for these following claims you make:
"Nothing [in maths teaching] has worked."
"Most of [the teachers] are math phobic"
"No matter what textbooks or worksheets or lesson plans the higher-ups devise for them, the teachers teach math by rote,"
"they just pray that no smart-alec student asks them a question such as "Why do we do it that way?" or "What good is this?"
"The students, of course, pick up on their teachers' fear, and they learn not to ask or even to think about such questions. They learn to be dumb."
"a math-schooled mind is a chloroformed mind."
Honestly Peter, for the love of God take a step back from your personal anger and look at these claims in a clear and rational manner. Are they really the well-thought-through, rational and balanced comments of a research professor of Psychology?
Steve
I would love to hear just
I would love to hear just what you know about Peter's personal anger.
Hi Anonymous
Peter has explained on an earlier thread about his difficulty and disappointment with his own son in state school. Unfortunately this forms his sole first-hand experience state schools, and sadly he seems reluctant to conduct any actual research into what really goes on in state schools.
I don't mind him plugging Sudbury, in which he has a personal interest (his son goes there, he has conducted research there and he is a governor there), as long as he freely admits his interests and bias.
I wouldn't mind if he ever produced some genuine contemporary research to back up his arguments (something a little more up-to-date than the 1920's anyway)
What I object to is the sustained vitriolic verbal assault on state schools, in which he resorts to his own bad experience, plus second hand accounts from other homeschoolers and research which predates the 1970s.
It is depressing to think that someone who has attained the title "research professor" has not actually done any research into state schools before attacking them in the way Peter does.
If only he stepped inside a real state school, with an open mind, he would at least have a more measured perspective.
Steve
Correction
Just a little correction, here, Steve. I have two step children who attended public (state) school, one of whom is still a student there. I have spent lots of time in such schools, including time within this year. I am sometimes invited to speak to classrooms. I have had many conversations with my step-daughter's school friends. I occasionally am invited to speak to groups of public (state) school teachers (for whom I have much respect). I am not at all unfamiliar with what happens in such schools.
While I have not felt the need to document with "studies" some of the obvious points I have made about such schools (such as the fact that they are coercive), I have in fact made use of research, including recent research, to document certain more specific points--for example, to document young people's unhappiness and boredom in school.
Also, I am not a "governor" at Sudbury Valley School. The school is governed entirely by the School Meeting, which consists of students and staff members. I am on the board of trustees, which meets once or twice a year on average to discuss broad policy issues and make suggestions. This board has absolutely no governing power. I am, unabashedly, a supporter of this type of schooling, based on my research and observations there.
-Peter
Hi Peter
Thank you for your reply, and please accept my apologies for the errors. Please would you confirm the following aspects of my comments as true:
Did you withdraw your (step)son from state school after some difficulties you had there which have left you with a lasting negative impression of state school system?
Have you conducted NO research in state schools?
As a trustee, do you have any financial connection with Sudburr?
Thank you in advance. You say you "have not felt the need to document with studies"? Well why on earth not? You say so much is obvious, yet here I am, begging for just a little solid evidence. Forget your "talks with step daughters school friends", that cuts no mustard with me. My education has taught me not to trust people just because they have a PhD. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (or at least some evidence would be nice (and you must admit, your claims that we are all coersed into schooling are somewhat extraordinary)
Evidence please. No more fudging the issue. You may not have thought contemporary research was necessary before, but I think it is your duty as a research professor to start coming up with data, and no more than 10 years old at that. Is that toom much to ask?
Steve
And don't you start repeating those claims about children's boredom in school, which I have already shown you are flawed on your previous post. Ta
Discussion going nowhere
Steve, I'll respond to your questions above, but this is the last time I will respond to such questions. I don't think you are interested in true discussion here.
1. I explained in an earlier post, in response to your questions, that my son left public school after 4th grade and from then on attended Sudbury Valley School. My concern for his future played a role in my initial research study of SVS--a study of the graduates. The "negative impression" I have of standard schools (not just state schools, but most private ones as well) comes from a broad range of experiences, not from the one incident that you mention. A lot of it has to do with the development of a philosophy of life--a philosophy founded in democratic values and a belief that the appropriate way to raise good democratic citizens is to present them, in their schooling, with the rights and obligations of participatory democracy. That does not happen in standard schools.
2. I have conducted no research in state schools. The focus of my research has been on self-directed learning, which doesn't happen in state schools. As you know, however, thousands of other people have and are studying learning as it occurs in state schools and almost nobody except me is studying self-directed learning. In fact, as I explained in a previous post, most studies of children of school age have been conducted in state schools and other standard school settings, and that has given us a biased understanding of children's natures.I am trying in my own small way to correct that. If you want studies of learning in state schools the education journals and book in your local university library are filled with them.
3. As a trustee I have no financial connection with SVS. This is an unpaid, elected position. I do not make any money from my connection with SVS. My interest in improving education derives from my moral concerns, my concerns with making a better world and reducing the anxiety and depression we see among so many young people today. It is in no way a financial one. I could make more money, and gain far more fame in my field, by dong other things--things that are accepted by the mainstream of current academic thought.
4. You keep asking for evidence for things that seem obvious to me and to essentially everyone else, including the many public school teachers I have talked with. The main claim that I have made that you have disagreed with repeatedly is that schools are coercive. In school children are not free. You seem to think I need evidence for that; but it is obvious to everyone else I know. If a child who is told in school that it is now time to do arithmetic responds, "No, I'm going to go outside now and climb trees," or "No, I'm going to read my Harry Potter book now," what do you think would happen? People look at the sky and see that it is blue. What is the evidence that the sky is blue? Prove it. People look at school and everyone except you sees that it is coercive. I am not going to waste time "proving" the obvious. I am going to continue to focus my research on interesting questions for which the answers are not obvious.
-Peter
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