Curious?

Excellent post. Warren Farrell may have been the first to point this out in his book "Why Men Are the Way They Are" (1986?).

I wonder if this difficultly creating new, deep friendships after age 30 applies a bit more to white collar than blue collar men.

Blue collar men may be more likely to not take work home after 5pm, engage in non-work activities with other men, and have a sense of comradely rather than competition with their fellow male peers and co-workers. Might be an interesting study there.

Also helps to explain why men take relationship breakups harder than women. Women turn to their family/friends for emotional support. Men turn to... (sometimes alcohol / drugs).

Poignant.

Michael, I hadn't thought of that but I'm in deadlock agreement. I do think its one of these hidden costs of the white collar world. It would be interesting to explore the barriers that prevent the white collar world from learning from the blue collar world. Our society has this implicit message that white collar is better and the older I get, the more I realize the fallacy in this.

I find myself in greater awe of someone who can build their own wine cellar than someone who can multiply 9 digits in their head.

cheers,
Todd

Michael, I hadn't thought of that but I'm in deadlock agreement. I do think its one of these hidden costs of the white collar world. It would be interesting to explore the barriers that prevent the white collar world from learning from the blue collar world. Our society has this implicit message that white collar is better and the older I get, the more I realize the fallacy in this.

I find myself in greater awe of someone who can build their own wine cellar than someone who can multiply 9 digits in their head.

cheers,
Todd

I would suggest thinking a bit more deeply about success - though it sounds like you are doing that often enough ;)

The ways of "being successful by society's standards" may not even be that, they are the ways that are most talked about when someone achieves them. The successes seen on TV. - Increasingly, though, there are more costs than mere loneliness, not least with the increasing social costs the single-minded pursuit of success and wealth creates, and the ecological limits it is increasingly running up against.

Not to forget, all the conventional success isn't going to give you a feeling of life satisfaction if you have even an inkling of the notion that there's more to life than your net worth...

Todd, although we don't know each other well enough to be too close, you and I have some kind of cosmic bond as evidenced by the fact that there always seems to be some kind of synchronicity between what you write and I write.

I recently wrote an article on gender differences http://psychologyofwellbeing.com/201108/love-or-science.html and in response to one of the comments a few days ago I wrote: "culturally we tend to evaluate a man’s success more by his job and earning potential and at least historically, women are more likely to be rated successful based on their success as a wife and mother. The challenge is to break through these cultural norms to reach our full potential on both sides."

This comment was inspired somewhat by an advance copy of a book that you would love, "Situations Matter" by Sam Sommers where he talks about all of the cultural contexts that shape things that we tend to accept as being hard wired (see http://psychologyofwellbeing.com/201110/men-are-better-at-math.html.) You can easily imagine all of the messages that young boys get growing up (some overt and some much more subtle) about how close they should be with other boys.

I think you ask an important question at the beginning of your article? "Can men pursue wealth and success while avoiding loneliness?" It gets at the idea that there may be a tradeoff here. In other words, could you even the playing field for both genders and have both accomplishing more of what they otherwise wouldn't, or would you simply shift strengths and priorities from one domain to another with no overall net improvement?

The article sounds very logical, but I don't observe this going on in the world of either blue collar or white collar men. Men are always spending their free time and weekends with other guy friends watching sports, golfing, fishing, hunting, hiking, playing disc golf. They seem to nurture male friendships that last a lifetime. Women on the other hand seem to only socialize with other female family members. I don't see nurturing relationships between women, but rather lots of competitive in-fighting between women where they are constantly bickering with another woman or else complaining of another hurting their feelings. As a woman I can't say I have had hardly any female friends my entire life and actually have had numerous platonic male friends. I would love to have other female friends, but I don't find women very friendly but rather snooty and judgmental and not ones that like to participate in any hobbies or activities with other people.

Todd - As a divorced, white collar worker in his 40s, your post spoke to me on many levels. One of the most important elements of my bouncing back from all this has been my reaching out to existing friends and the making of new ones. And, I've gone against my own 'personality' by sharing some fairly private thoughts and insights with people I've recently met. It's amazing how caring and trusting people can be when you decide to let your guard down. Thanks.

This is one of my all-time gutsy, favorite articles. Todd, your creative brain gives us all important pause. Thanks.

The originality and stretching brain cells re: success is inspiring. The comments are thought-provoking and relevant.

I coach businessmen,(and women, many entrepreneurs. When they get down to the knitty-gritty core issues, they often admit they have trouble trusting other men. Many say they don't want to be, nor feel competitive, but when push comes to corporate shove, many keep looking over their shoulders to see if the pecking order has changed. The men who have mentors seem more connected and far less often do not question their worthiness nor do they gauge their success by extrinsic standards.

Entrepreneurs I see are often loners, but they don't seem to mind having less friends as much as men who work for someone else. Maybe their brains are always firing and that keeps others away. I will say that those men with close marital relationships and very patient, accepting wives seem to fare better emotionally.

If we look at the scientific evidence of friendship and loneliness, (and feel free to enlighten me as I am a practitioner and appreciate your research) authenticity trust, and acceptance surface, but I think humor and playfulness along with curiosity and genuine concern about the other person are a necessity. It takes time and cerebral sorting to get to know someone. I don't know about you, but the older I get, the more I value my time and only want to spend it with those who share mutual joy, growth, and understanding. And they accept me warts and all, and there are days the warts win! Still they persevere, smile, and accept our differences as well as synchronicities.

I think risk-taking, honest men like Todd who are aware of their relationship needs and purposefully search for rewarding male relationships, are a rarity. Hope this article opens to doors to allow men the privilege to reap the rewards of true friendship. I do agree with Todd that it takes effort and forbearance to find people with whom you click.

I love hearing Jeremy's comments about the two of you diving into the ocean and coming up with similar starfish. Raw topics other less open men would not tackle. How fun is that. And all of us benefit from your mutuality and affection. Again, great role-modeling.

When I was in the therapy world for 34 years, interestingly, I often found I loved working with blue collar folks, as they told it like it was. No fear of "What will you think of me" nor who "Will you value my success?" Just in your face truth about feelings.

I am a women who has been blessed with a myriad of friends from all walks of life. A few friends have been with me since Hector was a pup, but true-blue professional friends have also become just as close. I treasure them all.

Again, thanks for a timely, thought-provoking article, Todd.

"Judy, your zest for life comes across in every email and message. I suspect you attract random characters everyday you walk through life.... Cheers, Todd

Thanks, Todd, and you are right on. I love every "character" I meet and especially some creative thinkers I coach. Curiosity and an openness to listen to folks' stories...Oh, I could write a book. Ironically, many years ago, my grandfather, then publisher of our town newspaper, wrote a short book, "The Folks That I Have Knowd" (Yes, his word was Knowd. Guess the Apple didn't fall too far off the cart, except my cart loves to gather apples of wisdom from around the world.

Todd, your article is especially powerful because of your friendly,extroverted personality. But finding true intimacy isn't necessarily a function of personality....I know many outgoing guys who yearn to have friends who really "get" them. Ditto for women. Appearances often belie existential reality. There's a reason that social media sites like FB are so popular....there is a real yearning for people to find others with whom they are simpatico and who are willing to connect over all kinds of issues at all hours of the day....or night....and without geography, and sometimes language, being a barrier.
Thanks, Todd, for addressing a profound and touching human need.

Cheers,
Marion

Uppermost

The top
grain on the peak
weighs next
to nothing and,
sustained
by a mountain,
has no burden,
but nearly
ready to float,
exposed
to summit wind,
it endures
the rigors of having
no further
figure to complete
and a
blank sky
to guide it's dreaming.

- A.R. Ammons

admittedly, one should not expect much from a blogger on such a site, but these articles by this author are so mind numbingly simplistic that one would only hope a little more intellect could be included. i am aware it attracts a self-help, guru like crowd. however, there is no lasting contribution to be found in this author's words.