Animals and Us

This is absurd. Humans are omnivorous animals.

/argument

How ridiculous...

What about the poor plants? We are destroying plants daily? How is that not wrong? Why do we only think that killing and farming animals is wrong but not plants?

There are so few vegetarians because vegetarian diet doesn't work! There was a recent study about why people return to eating me and 75% of those said that it was for HEALTH REASONS.
It's not healthy to not eat meat. We have evolved through thousands of years eating meat, it helps our bodies in many ways.

If anything if you look into healthy diets a smart diet would include.. lean mean and high intake of fish, low grains, especially low gluten. There are many studies that show how gluten can be toxic for many individuals. And high in vegetables.

Note that I am not pushing a vegetarian or vegan diet. (I am long-time meat eater.) Further, I am the person who did the study you mentioned showing the most vegetarians who go back to eating meat do it for health reasons. (See my post on this.)

I use the term moral hero in a metaphorical sense....They are people who have the guts to resist what I consider a strong biological urge -- the desire to eat meat. This urge is sufficiently strong that even most vegetarians eventually return to meat.

Hal, thanks again for an excellent post. I agree with most points, but would add that some meat-eating "vegetarians" describe themselves as such in research because they wish to project a positive image. Vegetarianism is an aspirational choice for these people and this is a common problem with research -- I wouldn't label it "lying," exactly.

Second, I don't believe that the moralization of eating animals has failed. It's just a long, slow arc. Most vegetarians choose to eschew animal flesh for health, but the rise of "humane" meat is just one example that ethical issues are taking hold, if only very slowly. It's premature to say it has failed, however.

To "ecstasy" -- please do a little research and get your facts straight. First, a vegetarian diet results in far FEWER plants being consumed. What do you think animals eat? They eat plants, and far more of them than humans. Being an omnivore kills far more plants than being vegetarian or vegan. And just ask the American Dietetic Association about health -- those concerns are decades old.

For those who are interested in more research on vegetarianism and veganism, check out HRC's HumaneSpot.org.

"Most people (including me) are like Haidt when it comes to meat. We succumb to the whisperings of our genes."

What evidence do you have that eating meat is "in our genes"? There is no real evidence that this is the case. I suspect that imagining biological and/or evolutionary imperatives for meat eating is useful for avoiding the moral question for many meat eaters. I covered this issue in an article on arguments against vegetarianism, which you can see here: http://mb27.blogspot.com/2011/09/reflecting-upon-arguments-against.html

"Most people (including me) are like Haidt when it comes to meat. We succumb to the whisperings of our genes."

What evidence do you have that eating meat is "in our genes"? There is no real evidence that this is the case. I suspect that imagining biological and/or evolutionary imperatives for meat eating is useful for avoiding the moral question for many meat eaters. I covered this issue in an article on arguments against vegetarianism, which you can see here: http://mb27.blogspot.com/2011/09/reflecting-upon-arguments-against.html

If you eat fish, you are not VEGETARIAN, you are PESCITARIAN.
People need to know their terms.

And there is a HUGE difference between hunting and eating meat, and FACTORY FARMING it.

Treating animals with respect, letting them roam free, then hunting them down and eating them is the circle of life.

Getting your rocks off by the power trip you get by using machinery to confine and control them, then adding to the growing obesity problem by stuffing your fat face with a processed hamburger is greed, pure and simple.

Take down a free roaming cow with your bare hands, then by all means, eat it.
Everything else is unnecessary cruelty.
I'd think if anything, in this day an age, we should be pioneering foods with LESS calories per buck, not more.

Ah well, most Americans are gonna eat themselves into an early grave anyway. With any luck, other countries will invade and they'll stop eating such disgusting amounts of factory farmed animals.

I don't see anything wrong with eating meat, if other species eat it too. Though I try to eat locally reared and free range where possible. If an animal is going to end up on your dinner plate at least it should have a comfy life and painless death. (Yes I am talking about certain religious practices which seem to delight in cruelty on the killing chain.)

Hickey,
Thanks for your comment -- but I disagree with your logic.

Just because other animals engage in an activity does not mean that it is moral. For example, chimps ripe the arms off live baby monkeys and eat them (both the arms and the monkey). And I recently watched a group of male ducks gang rape a female duck in a canal in Amsterdam. In addition, my cat loves to torture small animals before finally killing them. None of these activities would be ethical in humans, though they are perfectly "natural" in other species.

Note that I am a meat-eater. But I do not justify the fact that I eat flesh on the basis that meat is part of the diet of other species.

Hal

Ascribing the return to a diet that includes meat to genetics is a far leap in my opinion. What about conditioning to eat meat? It would be interesting to know how many people who were vegetarian from childhood switched to eating meat and for what reasons. Maybe, if we did not get used to eating meat and even found it disgusting (for example as we find eating dog disgusting in western countries), we would simply be vegetarian.

Interesting article. I've met people who call themselves "kind-of-vegetarian-but-I-eat-poultry". I thought they were exceptions--I didn't realize it was the norm!

To add to Hal's comment on Hickey's argument about other animals:
Other animals need meat to survive. I, as a human living in a first-world country, have many other options. I do not need meat to live or to thrive--so why eat it? The logic that "other species eat it too" is a naturalistic fallacy. Natural does not equal ethical.

Also, although Hickey may never see this, I might as well let you know just in case:
"Free range" means nothing. USDA's definition is "Producers must demonstrate to the Agency that the poultry has been allowed access to the outside."
Unfortunately, that's it. That is 99% loophole. If you're genuinely interested in eating free-range, be sure to personally visit the farm. Do not trust labels.

Precisely because the scientific evidence that meat is cancerous to our health isn't being taught. Watch forks over knives, tons of data on meat, even clean pre-antibiotic meat, turns on our cancer cells.

Morality isn't enough. In these posts alone people are claiming we are omivours. No were not, try biting into the neck of a cow and see if you break the skin. Our colon can't handle it either, it is long like a plant eater.

Cigarettes were clearly labeled as bad for you. On the otherhand, we are constantly being told we need meat. Yet, a human infant, who presumable needs the most protein to grow, thrives on human breast milk at 5.9 percent, lower then your average vegetable.

Tell people its wrong, who cares, tell people it kills you slowly, then slowly they listen.

For me, it's like were two year olds with toy trucks the way we use and abuse sentient life on this planet, and deep down we know it, hence our aggression, misery, and alienation from not living in harmony with the natural world.

As other posters said, humans are omnivorous, so it's part of natural diet to eat meat.
Like most animals, if we stray from our natural diet, we are more vulnerable to sickness.
In every party of nature, there are food chains. It's silly to make a moral argument for straying from a natural diet, that will leave us all healthier.
Of course, all animals eaten should be raised and processed properly.
Oh, and don't forget: Meat taste good for a reason!!!

The beef v chicken ratios can be explained by the medical community saying that beef is saturated with cholesterol and will kill us, but white meat chicken is the panacea of health food. This happens to coincide with the timeline for animal rights.

The beef v chicken ratios can be explained by the medical community saying that beef is saturated with cholesterol and will kill us, but white meat chicken is the panacea of health food. This happens to coincide with the timeline for animal rights.

"According to a recent report by the highly credible Humane Research Council, if you include dairy and eggs, an astounding 920 pounds of animal products slides down the average American's throat each year."

I've been mulling over this number of "920 pounds", and I'm finding it hard to believe. 2.52 pounds per day on average? Is that hang weight, purchased weight, or consumption weight? Does it include animal products that are used in agriculture to grow vegetable crops?

I am an unabashed carnivore at this point in my life and I average about .75-1 lb. of meat per day, a few tablespoons of cream, a couple eggs a few times per week, and that is it for animal products. Maybe I'm in an odd bubble of vegetarian identifying folks, but I eat more animal products, or admit to eating more animal products than anyone I know and would be hard pressed to consume more than 375 pounds per year.

Is it the weight of milk, and average Joe's are guzzling it by the gallon that skews the numbers? Is it normal for people to eat 20 oz. steaks everyday outside of my circle of friends? I guess I just don't see this as being a realistic number and would like to know how it was generated.

Dr Herzog, you're an intelligent enough man to realize that "my genes made me do it" isn't an excuse for harming others. If you think that slaughtering animals for pleasure is unethical, you're capable controlling your actions.

To everybody who claims that eating meat is natural, that doesn't matter. Even if the claim isn't dubious, it's a red herring. Fact is, it's possible to be a healthy vegan. I'm one of them. If it were impossible to be vegan, I wouldn't be here typing this.

By the way, I didn't eat red meat (or animal products) yesterday or within the past two years. Not all of us make claims just because they sound good.

I was raised in a vegetarian household. Actually, we were mostly vegan -- my mom did not purchase or cook with any dairy products and we mostly eschewed processed foods, but we would occasionally eat a prepared cake or cookies or something like that that contained dairy products.

When I moved out, I started eating dairy products, but remained vegetarian. I never did understand people who claimed to be vegetarian but ate fish, or poultry, or something like that.

Finally, at age 33, I decided to start eating meat. I made the decision for a couple reasons. I was tired of always missing out on some (or most) of the culinary options available, especially when traveling. But more importantly, I felt like I was eating a fantastically unhealthy diet in my effort to avoid meat. I was bordering on BMI obesity. My view was that I generally made a lot of poor decisions about what to eat because I was consistently hungry. So I would either load up on carbs and cheeses (pizza, mac and cheese, huge bowls of pasta or rice, etc.), or if I tried to eat something healthy, I'd later binge on sugary or salty snacks to make up the caloric deficit.

So I tried to completely reorient my diet. I started eating meat (any meat, although I try not to eat high fat meats every day) and sharply limited my intake of carbs, especially sugar. I also tried to eat more fruits and vegetables. Nothing is off limits to me, but I have tried to fill up with relatively healthy meat-based dishes at regular meal times and if I need to snack, to limit it to things like fresh fruits, non-fat, unsweetened yogurt, beef jerky, etc.

In the six months after I started eating meat, I lost 35 pounds and now am at a relatively healthy weight that I can maintain without any sort of strict, constant "diet".

In saying all this, I also recognize that it is at least theoretically possible to meet many of my objectives with a vegetarian diet, especially if I spent time cooking healthy, high-protein vegetarian dishes and taking food with me to work, etc. But I think people have to do what makes sense for them, and as someone who often works 70+ hours per week and eats 2-3 meals per day at my desk, I had to set up a system that worked for me, which happened to involve eating meat.

I have been a vegetarian since 1974. I never liked meat and when I left home, I simply never bought it. The last time I tried to eat meat (chicken) I nearly threw up and had to spit it out. I have never tried to eat it again. I went on a mostly raw food diet in 2003. Eating fresh fruits and vegetables and seeds and nuts supplies one with a very nutrient rich diet. I feel great. Whenever I do eat cooked food, I do not feel so good the next day. Now and then, I eat some organic, raw cheese but feel better when I do not eat it. Food has deep emotional connections that drive many of our food choices.

Wishing good health to all.

I wonder whether 'a lot of self-defined vegetarians lie about being a vegetarian' is the right interpretation. It might just be 'a lot of self-defined vegetarians use the wrong definition of vegetarian ('vegetarians don't eat regular meat, but do eat fish and/or poultry', instead of 'vegetarians don't eat any kind of animal flesh')'.

It's a well-known fact that a lot of people don't know that vegetarian means not eating fish n'either, and that people who don't eat regular meat but do eat fish should be called pescotarians.
And there are also quite a lot of people that don't know that vegetarian means noot eating poultry n'either.
And it's not only self-defined non-vegetarians that are unaware of what vegetarian actually means, a lot of pescotarians actually think they are vegetarians, because they are unaware of it too.

There are two definitions of the word 'meat':
- the biological one: flesh of any kind of animal, including fish, poultry, etc.
- the culinary one: flesh of mammals, so not including fish, poultry, etc.

Since people usually say vegetarian means 'not eating meat', it's easy to understand that there is a lot of confusion, because a lot of people are not aware of the fact that the biological definition of meat is used, and not the culinary definition.

The second survey that was mentioned in the article, doesn't mention how many of the self-defined vegetarians that actually ate non-vegetarian the previous day, ate fish or poultry. But the overall intake of fish and poultry in that group was half of the overall total meat intake of that group, so I guess it's safe to say that probably half of them ate fish or poultry.
So if that's the case, they're not lying or trying to improve their self image, but they might just simply think that vegetarian is the right way to describe their diet.

I do think it is important that pescotarians and poultry-eaters don't call themselves vegetarians, because it's confusing, but I wouldn't call them liars.

By the way, why would vegans give up ice cream and pizza?
There are many, many kinds of vegan ice cream, with fruit (juice), limonade, soy milk, coconut milk, or other 'plant milks' as the main ingredient instead of dairy.
And pizza is not necessarily non-vegan, when you make them yourself you can just use vegan cheese alternatives (some of which taste very much like regular cheese) or no cheese. And there are also some vegan pizzas in stores and in some restaurants.

I am a vegetarian for purely health reasons. I am amoral on heating meat. Some people's bodies need red meat. Red meat is poison to my body, so I eat carbs(I am not overweight).

The UN and others say that more green house gases are produced by the meat industry than motor vehicles. I don't understand why a believer in global warming would not be a vegetarian. Oh, I know, they are hypocrites. They want somebody else to make the sacrifices for them. Let the rich pay the income tax.