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Morgan Childers and I decided to find out why three out of four vegetarians eventually revert back to eating animals. Here is what we found... Read More
Not one mention of common
Not one mention of common developmental stages that would account for an acetic lifestyle change that would commonly be seen in post-adolesence, particularly in young college students or other young people seeking to gain further mastery of self and their environment? Establishing the vegetarian identity is one way to set oneself apart as an "individual" when seeking autonomy from parental and societal pressure. It would seem understandable that a large percentage of these people eventually return to a more pragmatic approach to diet.
good point...
Ben,
I agree with you. In fact, this came up in my interview with Staci (as I describe in the post on vegetarianism and anorexia). However, it did not come up in the comments in our on-line survey.
Interestingly, one of my daughters announced that she was becomming a vegetarian when she was 12. We figured it was a developmental stage. Wrong. Sixteen years later she still does not eat any meat.
Hal
meat
i think people should website
http://www.myhealth911.com/2011/09/meat/
imformation good
thank admin
my take..please read
enjoy
http://jaimedhecht.blogspot.com/
genetic proximity
Our fellow creatures on this earth have an astounding level of genetic similarity to us. Those similarities are especially evident in the ways animals perceive the world. All animals, including people can see, hear, taste, smell, and feel. Obviously all animals can feel physical pain. Can they also feel emotional or psychological pain? Can they feel elation? Can they feel fear, threat, even anger? Can they feel bonded to other animals? People who have spent much time around pets or farm animals, or have closely observed animals in the wild know the answer to these questions is yes.
The non-humans do have two very significant disadvantages with regard to their ongoing use as food sources for humans. First, they generally cannot communicate with humans in ways that most humans understand. Second, most of the ones raised to become food are tucked away in deplorable factory farm prisons where their lives of misery are not witnessed by the people who will indulge in the taste and smell of their dead and slightly burnt carcasses.
For these reasons I see meat eaters as genocidal cannibals who enjoy chewing on necrotic muscle tissue of their fellow creatures. The ethical ramifications of that are enormous.
You Sir, are absolutely
You Sir, are absolutely correct. The people who eat meat are not as evolved as you and I. It's a shame we have to suffer these fools.
Constant vegetarian and exvegetarian
I am sorry I missed your survey, but if you would like more data for research... or could you possibly tell me why I end up being vegetarian? I have my suspicions as to why but it would be nice if someone could throw out some more theories.
I dislike the taste or smell of meat, raw or cooked. But if i forgo it for extended periods of time I crave it again. Specifically beef and bacon or.... the dreaded... RIBS.
I feel like I am on a constant roller coaster of Vegetarian non/ex-vegetarian and I do not understand why.
It usually runs something like this... on a typical day of a typical week while I am non-vege. I eat approx. 1 serving of meat which is usually chicken or turkey. And by serving size I mean a hunk the size of a card deck or smaller. The rest of my diet is mostly carbs from vegetables and grains along with large amounts of fruits, non starchy veggies, and nuts.
And then there is the transition period, where meat starts to taste like saw dust and just thinking of meat makes my stomach feel queasy. Sometimes these transition periods will turn up randomly and other times there are defining moments that cause this. Like a science class that involves seeing photos or videos from surgeries or actual in class dissection "participation" (If you call cowering in the corner, non-verbally begging the teacher for mercy as you try not to vomit every time the 'specimen' oozes blood. oh,and trying not to have a panic attack.) or someone shoving raw meat, quite literally, in my face. I have never seen a hormonal connection with these, though most of them happen at random but seem to also follow a consistent pattern even when my life or hormones are not.
Then begins the I am not eating meat phase. I end up eating alot of peanut butter, nuts, rice and yogurt, and a few other combinations of food that supposedly end up making a complete protein if consumed in the same meal. The only problem is I am extremely picky, and have a limited spectrum of food that i do like. I either eventually get bored of peanut butter and force myself eating meat again or I suddenly begin to crave meat.
And the cycle seems to repeat endlessly. I understand when I have "traumatic" experiences with blood or raw meat why I suddenly lose interest in it, what confuses me is why it happens the rest of the time.
Ps. I do not have an eating disorder. I only consider myself picky becuase that is what I have been told I am.
meat eating cycles
Your story if fascinating. Some researchers have found that meat cravings and repulsions fluctuate in pregnant women. However, in one study, the desire for meat was not related to the menstrual cycle (I thought it might be).
Some of our participants told us they began to crave meat when they became anemic. Otherwise, your case seem pretty unique.
By they way, bacon is the downfall of many vegetarians....and I agree with you about ribs!
Hal
Vegetarian for 18 years
I'm proud to say I haven't eaten meat since 1993, the year I went to college and became free from my meat eating parents. I never liked meat and do not get why people enjoy it. When I was a child, I saw a package of chicken on our kitchen countertop. I asked my mother what the red liquid was around the meat and she said they were just "juices." I knew better and immediately made the connection that we were about to eat an animals body parts. That was the end for me. I strongly believe meat is murder and am happy to have survived past any trends. I never did it for trendy reasons. Go Veg!!
natural meat avoiders
Kristen,
I have interviewed quite a number of vegetarians and many of them, like you, have never really liked the taste of meat or always found it disgusting. In fact, my daughter Katie is in this category. I suspect that people who are genetically predisposed to dislike the taste of flesh find it easier to become vegetarian and stay meatless. I discuss this in more detail in my book and also plan to write a couple of more posts on this topic.
Thanks for you comment.
Hal
Thanks Hal, I'm not sure if
Thanks Hal,
I'm not sure if this has any basis in reality or not but the prescription for living handbook mentions people with type A blood are the "first vegetarians." I'm type A.
Blood type and vegetarianism
Kristen,
A friend also mentioned the presumed connection between vegetarianism and blood type. When I did a Google search, I found all kinds of "references" to this. However, when I looked at the scientific literture (PubMed, etc,) I did not find a single reputable study linking blood type and meat-eating or vegetarianism. As I discuss in my book, there does seem to be a genetic basis for individual differences the attraction to the taste of meat, but I can find no evidence that it is linked to blood types.
I plan to discuss this in a later PT blog. Thanks for the comment!
Hal
I find it humorous when
I find it humorous when people use this kind of thinking to justify being a vegan.
I hate to break it to you, but contemporary industrial society needs animal by-products. Even if you NEVER eat another piece of meat for the rest of your life, an animal will have died to provide you with a cell phone, car, home, etc, ect. Most people don't undrestand that modern industrial machinery must use animal byproducts that come from slaughter houses. Without the by products all vegatable food production and other necessities of modern society would grind to a halt.
You don't need to believe me, its a fact.
There is no going back and being a vegan won't save ANY animals in your lifetime, unless we all become hunters and gathers again.
BTW, I am an applied anthrooplogist working in the private sector.
I find it humorous when
I find it humorous when people think that being vegan is about being 100% pure and don't understand that people actually do think this stuff through.
I hate to break it to you, but veganism is not about that. It's impossible to live a life without killing a single animal. But it's a huge difference caring and trying not to compared to not caring at all. You will ofcourse kill fewer animals because you don't eat them, don't take their milk (getting killed in the end), not using their skin and fur in clothes or other products etc etc. You learn more as you go and can change your consumption to becoming more animal friendly and environmental friendly. You alone can't change a whole society, but many people can make it shift without society would grind to a halt.
You don't need to believe me, it's a fact.
There is no going back and being a vegan WILL save animal lifes and the environment in your lifetime, unless we all become meat eaters and don't even care.
BTW, I am an applied farmer, cook, freegan etc, environmentalist of sorts working in the collective sector for people in my community.
I find it humorous when
I find it humorous when people think that being vegan is about being 100% pure and don't understand that people actually do think this stuff through.
I hate to break it to you, but veganism is not about that. It's impossible to live a life without killing a single animal. But it's a huge difference caring and trying not to compared to not caring at all. You will ofcourse kill fewer animals because you don't eat them, don't take their milk (getting killed in the end), not using their skin and fur in clothes or other products etc etc. You learn more as you go and can change your consumption to becoming more animal friendly and environmental friendly. You alone can't change a whole society, but many people can make it shift without society would grind to a halt.
You don't need to believe me, it's a fact.
There is no going back and being a vegan WILL save animal lifes and the environment in your lifetime, unless we all become meat eaters and don't even care.
BTW, I am an applied farmer, cook, freegan etc, environmentalist of sorts working in the collective sector for people in my community.
Whats an "applied farmer"?
Whats an "applied farmer"?
Do you mean you grew up on a subsistance or commercial farm and now practice such skills on an individual scale, in order to save some cows that have already been slaughtered, processed and shipped? I hope you don't mean "growing vegatables" in your yard? My grandpareants had a REAL FARM that I worked on during school vacations as a child. Sure, I haven't had the "full experience" of running a commercial farm, but I also have more perspective then some who grows tomatoes in thier yard with stuff they bought from Home Depot. I wouldn't go back to doing that kind of work unless we went in a dark age and I was forced.
You and I just have a very different perspective on how small the impact of a few well meaing people can actually have in our current society. Believe whatever you want but the modern bourgeoisie would still produce and process the SAME amount of cattle in the USA, even if it wasn't consumed as food by the masses. Food production is just as important to the bourgeoisie as weapons are. Meat is a huge part of that equation and no vote or boycott will ever make it go away or be reduced. Like I said your vision would require a second "dark age".
BTW, still speaking as an appliied anthropologist, who in retrospect of their earlier comment, realizes that you would be shocked and appalled at the kind of projects people like me are paid to work on; who's result most certainly undermine any miniscule grass roots efforts you can muster in a lifetime.
I say this with all due
I say this with all due respect, but you have any idea what veganism actually is? Have you ever been friends with one, read any works by us? It would seem you have not. Would you suggest that i never step outside lest i step on a microbe? or ant? never breathe again lest i inhale a bug?
Parable for you: bright-eyed little dude by the edge of the sea, throwing starfish back into the ocean. Cancer-ridden carnist walks over and asks what he is doing. Happy little boy states with a smile: "saving starfish". Angry old dude sputters: "you can never make a difference, you are wasting your time". The child with compassion in his soul quietly says "You can think that, but to that starfish i just returned to the sea, my actions meant the world to her".
Yes, I know what a vegan is.
Yes, I know what a vegan is. I have clients who pull the "vegan card" when I have to take them out to lunch to discuss projects. In contrast to Indian vegatarians (whom I work with and also attend these "client" meetings), the practice of american vegans is pointless. I have NO problem with vegatarians because they acknowledge the facts of how society "actually operates" and adjust accordingly.
Let me repeat, no animlas can be saved by a mass veganism movement. There is not enough good land to produce crops fit for "human consumption" in the whole world, for the world population. Vegans also like to forget that cows, pigs etc consume grains that humans cannot eat under any circumstances. They are in a way processing that inedible grain into a viable food prodcut fit for human consumption.
Maybe I would take vegans moreseriously if they were pro mass abortion and took vows to never reproduce. But they don't. So no vegan with thier equally consuming offspring WILL EVER consume less than I do as a non-reproducer, regardless of the amount of meat and animal by-prodcust I consume. I am mathmatically more green and earth friendly than any reproducing vegan ever could be. To say otherwise is simple delusion.
Still speaking as an applied anthropologist working in the private sector. Sometime you have to see things at the 50,000 foot level to truly understand reality and ones place within it.
Animal cruelty of factory farming
Congrats on not reproducing. Excellent. If we all follow your lead, the human population problem will be resolved in rather short order. Take your superior value system and go sell it in India and China. They seem in greatest need of your moral rectitude.
As for your views on animal vs plant consumption and their respective practicality and effects on the environment, you expose yourself as yet just another bloviator. You cite nothing scientific to back up your nonsense because there is nothing to cite.
Your views are right because they are your views. They are obvious to you and therefore should be obvious to everyone else. That is typical of how pretentious, ignorant, arrogant people operate.
Flesh consumers are callous and shallow self-righteous types. While some merely turn a blind eye to the horrific animal cruelty imposed through factory farming, for others it's a source of giddiness. They love the idea of endless misery of the "lower" animals. It makes the vile bastards feel superior.
your arguments
are false, please do read up on what animals eat. A lot of it is corn and soy, perfectly fitted for human consumption, and they cut down the rainforest to grow, please just read something before you comment so blatantely braindead.
Animal products used in industry have viable alternatives.
So, the industrialized world would grind to a halt without animal products? Once again we are handed the tablets from the mountain top with no examples, no citations, no footnotes, no data, just a good old fashioned self-seal of authority:
He states, "You don't need to believe me, its a fact."
The writer stakes a further claim to authority:
"BTW, I am an applied anthrooplogist working in the private sector."
Win any spelling bees lately?
Got examples? Leather couches and car seats do not count because there are very viable alternatives to those products. Name some indispensable animal product components that have no viable non-animal alternatives.
Animal products used in industry have viable alternatives.
A lot of this commentary has to do with "humans eating animals" but that isn't really the entire issue here. Vegans are also against eating eggs and milk, which is basically saying that farm animals have no place in the human ecosystem.
OK: so in a well-run ecosystem, here is where animals fit in:
- Ducks and geese: keep down weeds, slugs, insects
- Chickens: eat household garbage, insects, spiders, do the household composting. Provide eggs.
- Worms: more composting, turns raw fertilizer into primo fertilizer.
- Black soldier flies: eat manure, provide chicken food
- Ruminants: mow the grass (keep down grass fires), eat yard clippings, eat invasive plants, provide manure, wool, milk, transportation, stove fuel.
Until "modern farming" was invented, these animals were parts of the system, and often treasured. In much of the world they still are. Heifer International has saved many lives in the world, by providing farm animals that eat the local vegetation and provide manure. Nowadays herds of goats are beginning to be used instead of herbicide and mowers to clear land, and around here cows are often used to keep acreage mowed.
When you keep farm animals, you can't keep all the males, because they kill each other. So the males are usually eaten. And, in a healthy ecosystem, there MUST be a predator.
The alternative system, our "modern agriculture" relies mainly on fossil fuels to provide fertilizer, pesticides, tilling, and shipping. The land used to grow all foods, kills huge swaths of land, and the production, burning, shipping etc. of fossil fuels is destructive also (esp. when, say it pollutes the Gulf of Mexico).
So yes, the problem of "animal products" is way bigger than what you wear on your feet. The fact you exist, kills animals. The best thing you can do as a human being, is to help figure out a way we can all exist in a harmonious ecosystem rather than a destructive one.
There are several products
There are several products made from animals; however, your pessimism is rather sad. Just because we live in an industrial society does not mean we have to mass-produce other living beings and force them to live in the current cruel conditions, all in order to serve us. If you have empathy or morals, you can clearly see the barbaric nature of factory farms and industrial farming. It is a defeatist attitude to think that one person can't make a difference. If that were the case, then nothing would ever change. Each person votes with the products they buy and support.
I find it humorous that
I find it humorous that you're willing to avert your concern away from the suffering of millions of animals long enough to let us all know that we "need" their dead fat. Again, I am more evolved than you... I'm willing to have a discussion about alternative methods of de-greasing machinery. Are you? Working in the private sector you may be invested more in the monetary aspect of your "industry".
If you don't like the
If you don't like the "industrial uses" of "animal by-products" for "ethical reasons", then you MUST stop using medicine and "convenience technology". The big 3 I can think of are computers, cars and cell phones. I am not taking a hypocritical position on this issue, but all of you in opposition of my statements, in fact, most certainly are. I can't believe that of none of you can see the hypocrisy in your "ethical reasons" for not "swallowing flesh", but will still consume flesh in the form of sending electronic pulses over the World Wide Web and taking medicine that your doctor prescribes. Same amount of comsumption here, per capita.
Why people revert to eating meat
As a vegan who sometimes strays into vegetarianism but never has the desire to eat meat despite the fact that I admit I always liked the taste of meat, it is my feeling that many vegans and vegetarians start eating meat again because of the enormous public pressure to do so. Articles like this only serve to further the pressure on those of us that care for the suffering of animals, the future of the planet and the health of our bodies. People who eat correctly will NOT become anemic on a vegan diet. Many Olympic atheletes are vegan.
The woman who is eating raw meat is certainly not eating a healthy diet. Something tells me her vegetarian diet wasn't much smarter. While most medical experts agree that a healthy vegan diet is the best, our society (and most ill-informed doctors) continue to push meat and dairy as the solutions to all our problems. The medical facts do not support the myth that meat and dairy are good for you as promoted by Madison Avenue on behalf of the factory farming industry. We are genetically predisposed to digest protein directly from plant material. That is why we get sick from cholestorol while true carnivores do not. Yes, sometimes sticking to a vegan or vegetarian diet can be tough when the majority around you are telling you that you are wrong or that you are missing something great - especially when you are young and vulnerable to suggestion or feeling deprived because of media advertisements. But fruits and vegetables, and whole grains (what they tell us we're supposed to be eating folks!) are not bad! There's a lot to eat out there that doesn't come from a living animal - delicous stuff.
If you're going to eat meat at least be honest about why you're doing it. Don't spout all this crap about blood types and genes and people having a need for meat. That's bull. If you're worried that not eating meat is going to mess up your social life than you've got more serious problems. There's something for you to eat in every restaurant and if you think you're never going to be asked over for dinner again then you probably were a lousy dinner guest to begin with.
Finally someone racional,
Finally someone racional, thanks for your comment, you are totally right. People do things wrong and then they blame the vegeterian/vegan diet, and it honestly frustrates me.
Someone who does it for a strong conviction and concern for the living creatures and our planet, to stop the immense cruelty that most people support by their indifference, would never quit veganism. Someone who embraces veganism would never stop taking care of their health.
I will never stop.
my agenda
I assure you that I do not have an agenda when it comes to this issue. I study human-animal interactions - period. And the human-meat relationship is particularly complex, interesting and important.
I agree with you that the blood type theory is nutty - no evidence. There is however, good evidence that individual differences in the desire to eat meat are influenced by both genes and culture (see the references in my book).
However, like it or not, it does seem the be the case that most vegetarians eventually go back to eating meat. This is not simply my opinion. But we need more research on this issue to establish better data on recidivism of vegetarians.
Hal
Most idiots go back to being idiots...we need more research
Most ex-smokers go back to nicotine. Most former drug users go back to addiction. Most alcoholics who quit go back to booze. Most former religious practitioners go back to their cults. Most married cheaters who get caught go back to polygamy. Most formerly unemployed workers go back to getting fired again. Most previously fat folks go back to engorging themselves.
Show me a shred of scientifically verifiable evidence that 1) including animals in ones diet is healthier than a reasonably planned exclusively plant based diet, and 2) evidence that, for a population, reverting from a plant based diet to a diet that includes animal flesh produces a net positive result for the group.
Include in your research people who are vegan from birth. Find vegans who have not been exposed to very much of the incessant flow of Western diet propaganda. See if those vegans are more likely to stay on their intrinsically healthier diet.
Commercial media editorial content must necessarily promote the corporate values of advertisers. Much of the food promoted in ads of for-profit publication is chemical laden machine churned product that oozes animal fat and excess salt, substances that are at least psychologically addictive (seen any cheese ads lately?).
The fact that some vegetarians and vegans in our society get sucked back into the less healthy flesh inclusive diet cannot be that surprising. Attempting to make that look like a healthier choice is corporate media wasteland nonsense.
Telling readers what they want to hear makes the work of selling ad space easier and more lucrative.
Another way to look at it
Study the relationship between length of time one is a practitioner of veganism and recidivism. What constitutes being vegetarian or vegan, time wise? And what about going back and forth several times? Just like a smoker, it could take several attempts to break the addiction to what many long term vegans consider to be genocidal cannibalism.
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