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Americans, who buy every fraudulant seer huckster who comes down the pike, are great believers in science. Or are those two sides of the same coin?
Americans, who buy every fraudulant seer huckster who comes down the pike, are great believers in science. Or are those two sides of the same coin?
Hey! That psychotherapy
Hey! That psychotherapy thing happened to me too!
Except my root problem was that I was having a strange, eventually sexual relationship with a psychotherapist (in training) who shouldn't have been charging me - free psychotherapy is how the priests give back to the community.
But someday, addiction is going to go the way of smallpox. So will AIDS and cancer. Until then, the AA way is working well with my little pea brain that has evolved to have a certain propensity toward religious beliefs.
Wow
It must take a lot of years and serious work to be this arrogant, condescending, dismissive, all-knowing and obnoxious. How nice for you that you have the universe all figured out. Now please go away and restrict your mewling to the James Randi Foundation forum. Penn Gillette and Michael Shermer would be delighted, I'm sure, to meet a fellow know-it-all.
Thanks!
That's a compliment, right?
(Maybe I better reread it-I'll get back to you.)
RE: Thanks
Well at least he's giving you credit for the years of serious work. Don't you just love the arrogance of ignorance? How some people can bask in their own ignorance and launch pathetic ad hominems on those that did something about said ignorance that all humans are born with, still surprises me!
Ignorance is bliss
Mr. Stanton Peele has not done his homework and embodies the very thing he is criticizing.
A true scientific mind is an open mind that accepts nothing at face value but also rejects
nothing at face value.
The scientific community is as irrational as the spiritual community. The spiritual community
is a rational as the scientific community.
It would take a whole book to dismantle step by step the irrational thought process of Mr. Peele
and so this not the forum for it. The broad generalizations of his article betrays a lack of real
insight. There is a valid point to be made about the irrational but it certainly wasn't made here.
As a hint I would say that Mr. Peele's intellectual posturing dismisses thousands of years of
wisdom teaching from all over the world; teachings not derived from academic studies or untested
beliefs but from direct experiences into the nature of reality.
People are Irrational - Your Post is a Case in Point
And here's the kicker - young people are actually MORE likely to believe this bull!
Of course belief in fantasy is greater in the young.
All children engage in fantasy. As knowledge is gained through reason, it replaces fantasy.
Although it obviously varies a great deal, in general the younger someone is the less likely it is that they have considered these questions seriously and reasoned through to solid conclusions. Even if they have, new evidence, when considered may change some minds.
However, once people have embraced the reality of pseudosciences, they rarely go back.
But is anyone besides me bothered by the fact that we have made no inroads in reducing any category of major mental illness, many of which (like bipolar disorder) have increased exponentially?
We have. We have also increased our ability to identify these disorders and reduced the stigma attached to seeking help for mental illness (which results in more diagnoses). Your anecdote does not represent progress, but rather the past. The field of mental health services is moving toward evidence-based practices, most of which do not involve the kind of traditional psychotherapy your friend likely experienced.
The other thing that has grown like mushrooms is the prescription of psychiatric medications, particularly for the young.
Um, because we have more of them, they work better and with fewer side effects, and people are more likely to seek help due to reduced social stigma.
Honestly, did you take basic research methods? Ever hear of confounding variables?
I won't argue that people are not irrational, but dude, look in a mirror.
Ignorance may be Bliss, but it is still Ignorance
Mr. Stanton is not rejecting claims on face value. He rejects claims for which multiple attempts have been made to find scientifically rigorous evidence but for which none has been found.
I feel confident I can speak for Mr. Stanton in this respect:
If you showed Mr. Stanton scientifically rigorous, independently replicated, evidence that, say, prayer works, or homeopathy, or astrology, or that vaccines cause autism, he would do an about face, admit he was wrong, and that these things are "true" (because "true" to a rational person like Mr. Stanton means that there is, in fact, scientifically rigorous, independently replicated evidence.)
Of course, it is impossible to prove that something does not exist. You can only continue to reduced your confidence in that thing. No matter how low a rational person's confidence is in X, they will change their mind when presented with scientifically rigorous, independently replicable evidence of X.
The difference if scientific vs. spiritual/religious world views is summed up wonderfully by two lines in Tim Minchin's masterful poem, "Storm":
"Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
Learn more about Tim Minchin and listen to the entire Storm.
Almost Perfect
Loved the article! My one minor quibble is the parenthetical line "(You know, the youngsters that many Republicans and Fox broadcasters want to make sure are taught creationism.)"
While technically correct that many Republicns *do* want creationism taught, there are probably also many Democrats and members of other political parties who also would like to see it taught. But there are also many Republicans who are atheist (or simply rational) who respect and admire the separation of church and state and *don't* want to see it taught (I know several in this category). So we see the problem is not "republicans" as a group -- it is the religious right, which although it frequently manifests itself through Republicans, is not synonymous with being a member of the party (which I am not by the way, although I do subscribe to many of their conservative fiscal views).
Refreshing!
In the name of tolerance, the mental health community has eschewed evidence-based fact for inclusion. Sadly, this includes a great number of "treatments" and "modalities" that simply aren't true. "Alternative" and "complementary" medicine are terms used to describe "things that don't work, but may have a placebo effect." The things that work, we call "medicine." Science isn't perfect and doesn't know everything, but it's aware of at least one important thing - the fact that it doesn't know everything, and must keep adapting and adjusting to new evidence. Thank you Dr. Peele for a much needed article.
I Wouldn't Be Discouraging Alcoholics from Discovering AA
Well, I'm a pretty savvy, Western-science realist but the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous really DO work: http://www.settlenow.org/ShamebyAnyOtherName.html
you don't even know you're irrational
Readers might think this link is to a body of scientific evidence - surprise! It begins with quotes from the bible and from "Jesus' Son," followed by an "AA aphorism," then addresses at length the topic of "shame."
But I remained open-minded and prayed to God for Him to reveal the truth to me. He told me "This shmuck is an idiot" (Ecclesiastes)
Right for the wrong reasons
Dr Peele,
We, Americans do pride ourselves on being scientifically sophisticated but also we have a very strong curiosity within us. As a result we seek things, we seek the truth, we seek our Mind, Body and Spirit. This is what we do, but that is not held to just Americans. Before continuing, you must always calculate, some people are right for the wrong reasons and some people are wrong for the wrong reasons. Practicing a faith, religion or discipline of life is a constant struggle to seek the truth for the right reasons. On lookers whom judge and condemn due nothing for the discipline. It is far better, to be seeking growth of yourself the condemnation of others.
Your premise that massive sales of Angels and Psychic books are nothing but wives tales, trickery and out and out fraud fails to deliver why you believe America is irrational. These marketing models and the explosion in volume of these books/TV shows are a result of the times, whilst the companies monetize the movement of the collective consciousness of the audience available. It only proves logically as the volumes increase so does the fantasies of the subject. That does not mean the subject is to be scoffed at as a whole.
Apparently, there is a need, a question, a curiosity. The labeling an entire country irrational seems a tad over zealous based on the rise of this market. Basing this theme on TV shows and Books and your observation of the twin's psychic ability again fails to deliver anything but your own opinion. If this stunned you, sir in what capacity? Did this leave you in shock? Did it leave you curious? With out further study, controlled experiments and factual research it is irresponsible to condemn just as the shows and books may mislead their audience. Give us real research, real solutions as with out these your merely disparaging one's belief likening your efforts to the Spanish inquisition (Not to the same magnitude, certainly not, but to the same course of thought and judgement that endangers freedom of thought).
You single out Americans, but you forget the rest of the educated countries from the Brits to the Russians, Jews and Italians, Brazilians, Indians, Africans and the literate countries of the Earth believe in Angels, spirits and talking to the dead. Who are you to say Angels do not exist?
You're argument, at the very least is fractional and this argument seems to be wrong for the wrong reasons. Yes, Harry Houdini went on the Congress floor and said "wherein a medium intercommunicates with the dead, is a fraud from start to finish" he disapproved and exposed many as a fraud. Though, he still made a pact with his Wife to communicate beyond his death. His key phrase to her would be "Rosabelle, believe.” The Point is, he had a belief in this area which means he just did not find someone whom could accomplish communications with the deceased. But, he himself was not convinced to his very death.
For the most part your point about people believing in the "Metaphysical" over "traditional religion" are miss-directed/miss-guided has accuracy, in some cases, I'll give you that argument. Though your exclusion of valid spiritualists in your premise completely leaves a void of reality. From Deepak Chopra, Sri Sri Shavirankar, Dr. Michael Bernard Beckwith amongst others gives your article a lack of completion of your indictment.
The point here is including only a fractional population of spiritualists (aka only defined by book readers and TV show viewers) which you fail to describe with validity and present these individuals to the reader as a group of irrationals. Yet, your lack of supporting facts display no such individual. Your claim is nothing more than an opinion, incomplete premise and lends nothing to factual veracity. Hence, your argument of psychic capabilities of human can not be eradicated or proven with out further study.
Your statement "When people say they don't espouse traditional religion, but that they're spiritual, this usually means they believe in the crappier aspects of standard religion that have been repackaged as angel lore."
Again, for a fractional of the spiritualist population I can agree, but its again a fractional and not proper representation of the whole. Least you not forget there are standard religions which have unreasonable aspects in their own belief structures. This misrepresentation of the populace is just a convenient sampling for your convenient truth. The container you conjure has no bottom and leaves the argument that holds no fluid. The truth about this sampling of people whom execute spiritualism with the lack of research and understanding, half-hearted approach and simply do not Think for themselves, yes, is seen in every group through out humanity. Most recently, American's are not taught to think for themselves, not to question the status quo and as a result ignorance has become a cancer to this society, but its not just impacting American's its impacting the World!
Calling oneself spiritual as a substitute for religious denominations in many ways is a misunderstanding or can be an incomplete thought and lead to false truths. In fact, it is a symptom of a greater problem with in our religious constructs! Many religions, teach judgment, and judgement is taught to be at the hand of God. As Man/Woman is judged he/she rebels and why should'nt she/he? Self-judgement is as destructive as judgement on to another.
Its simple, Religion and Religious groups judge. Humans don't want to be judged and as a result joining the Church one exposes themselves to being judged. Funny thing is, if God has unconditional love than how can he judge? That's the point, God does not judge, Man/Woman does. Man's/Woman's thinking is "God" judges because we judge, after all, we're made after him. Ahh... and there's the rub, Man/Woman does not think like God, Man/Woman can not, Man/Woman's thinking is on an entirely different level of consciousness from God.
Man/Woman judges, and Man/Woman judges because of self-doubt. And self-doubt is driven by EGO "Easing God Out". As Man/Woman views others, this self-doubt is imposed on any other as they judge. And this judgement begets their own condemnation which is a perverse self-retribution of their own self-judgement. This alone evaporates God from the decision of judgement whilst making forgiveness, of self, more elusive.
As result, this type of interpretation of Spiritual discipline is Wrong. God doesn't judge and God doesn't forgive. Man/Woman judge themselves out of guilt. Based on this self imposed thinking this thought is transferred from Self to others or "thinking" God judges others with alignment of their own thoughts of offense. Though this judgement is self imposed and is possible, in this context, to afford only self failure. They're right, for the wrong reasons it would appear in their understanding. In reality, they are wrong for he wrong reasons but their base does not allow truth to be relevant. Man judges self is more damaging and the catalyst to all sins.
Tying this back to your disparagement of Spirituality; how does a person get weird ideas of God, psychics and speaking to the dead? Running from judgement and seeking a spiritual solace one will do anything to get away from pain. Their base of reality is flawed and the truth becomes unknown to them. As a result their premise is based on a false truth and therefore has no validity to itself. Mental pain wallows and proliferates in self judgement. They seek not to be judged and spiritualism offers in the broadest sense this very solution.
When one goes to a spiritual center and they are NOT Judged they may feel whole. Being accepted they are more likely to act the with less caution and seek being true to themselves. Maybe you study spirituality or maybe you don't. Maybe one aspires to be or not be an expert. Maybe one wants to buy Angel books and seek tarot or psychic readings but in the end they're not being judged and that is what is being purchased. Americans don't want to be judged and all we do from school, college, work, politics and social groups is judge our self-worth through our individual perfection. But the underlining truth is that to be accepted is what all humans seek.
Finally, your claim of psychic abilities appears to be a fantasy. But yet, we know our thoughts travel, thoughts have energy and and we attract what we are thinking. The lack of our electronic instrumentation to monitor, record, inspect and sample human brain waves is only a result of our technology. in our lifetimes we may very well see our technology communicate to the other side.
Maybe we'll even record "Rosabelle, believe.” maybe Houdini did. . .
In terms of your title, breaking up with a woman for believing Jamie Foxx communicates with his deceased grandmother. Now that is irrational.
Buddy, if you spent less time studying spiritualism
you might be able to figure out that "you're argument" should be "your argument." Then you could speak to fellow human beings successfully, which would bring you far more rewards than your goofy spiritual quests.
Interesting, you criticize a
Interesting, you criticize a typo that was authored in a text field interface and that's youR only rebuttal. I don't think my spiritual quest is goofy, but I never claimed to be on one. I communicate very well and frequently with dozens of people effectively and lovingly.
Based on your lack of response we can determine you are in agreement that your article lacks the facts to plausibly identify an irrational America. The article falls short.
In realization of your stance I can only wish you well and would encourage you to seek your own spiritual quest as it may suit you more than you will know.
Loving light to you sir wishing joy, happiness and blessings to you for exactly what ever you need,
J
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