The Prince of Reason

An interview with Albert Ellis, developer of rational emotive behavior therapy. The groundbreaking treatment rests on the premise that most of our emotional problems are based on irrational beliefs.

By Robert Epstein, published on January 01, 2001 - last reviewed on May 10, 2007

If they did we would be opposed to it. We teach people to be flexible, scientific and logical in their thinking and therefore to be less prone to brainwashing by the therapist.

What would the world be like if everyone in the world thought like Albert Ellis?

Oh, I think it would be a hell of a lot better. People would be largely free of neurosis. They would be much more creative and try all kinds of things that they might fail at and be rejected by others for failing at. They'd do things just because they like doing them.

What would relationships be like?

People would have unconditional self-acceptance. They'd always accept themselves no matter who disliked them or what they did badly. They'd also have unconditional other acceptance. They'd always accept other people, although not necessarily what other people do, which means they would be less prejudiced or combative. They'd also have high frustration tolerance in the face of adversity.

Would divorce still occur?

Yes. Acceptance is not love. You love a person because he or she has lovable traits, but you accept everybody just because they're alive and human.

What would psychology be like?

I think the future of psychotherapy and psychology is in the school system. We need to teach every child how to rarely seriously disturb himself or herself and how to overcome disturbance when it occurs. In that sense, psychotherapy belongs in the schools.

What do you see yourself doing over the next few years?

I see myself continuing pretty much as I do now, for as long as I'm able. I'm getting more fragile. I have arthritis of the thumbs and can't walk as well as I used to. I may have to restrict my activities, but if so I'll just do more here at the Institute—give workshops here rather than traveling around the world. And I hope to die in the saddle seat.

Do you have any regrets?

I regret that I've been so busy with clinical work that I haven't been able to spend much time on experiments and outcome studies. Fortunately, Beck and Meichenbaum and other clinicians have done some of it. But theoretically—and especially if I had been a member of the academic establishment—I could have done other experiments which haven't been done.

How do you want to be remembered?

I would like to be remembered as one of the individuals who founded, ideologically and practically, cognitive behavior therapy and who pioneered multimodal or integrated therapy.

Any final thoughts?

People don't just get upset. They contribute to their upsetness. They always have the power to think, and to think about their thinking, and to think about thinking about their thinking, which the goddamn dolphin, as far as we know, can't do. Therefore they have much greater ability to change themselves than any other animal has, and I hope that REBT teaches them how to do it.

So there's hope for humanity?

Yes. I think there's definite hope. But there are three musts that hold us back: "I must do well. You must treat me well. And the world must be easy." And I sometimes think that as long as we keep the second must, which is socially learned, then some screwballs 100 years from now will manufacture atomic bombs in their bathtub and maybe annihilate the whole human race because they demand that the rest of the world must agree with their dogmas. When we don't agree, they may zap us. So we'd better work hard on getting rid of that second must—Other people must do what I want them to do!" It's what makes people hostile, nasty, mean and combative, and it leads to feuds, wars and genocide. We'd better do something about that.