Right. That's what we call the "elegant solution." You might say that your wife is nasty and mean and blames you for everything. You say that makes you angry. We'll assume that she really behaves this way and teach you how to get unangry. Then you can decide whether she was really that bad.
How old are you?
I'll be 87 tomorrow.
And how many clients do you see?
When I'm in New York, I see about 40 individual clients, and I also have four groups with eight people apiece. So I see as many 70 or more clients per week.
Have you been cutting down over the years?
Yes, because of HMOs. In the old days we used to get more referrals, because people had insurance that paid for therapy. Now they belong to HMOs, and we can only be affiliated with a few HMOs. On the other hand, cognitive therapy, cognitive behavior therapy and rational emotive behavior therapy are much more popular with the public than they ever were. So we do okay.
What does it cost to have therapy with Albert Ellis?
We're a nonprofit organization, and it usually costs $100 an hour for individual therapy. Participating in a group costs $120 a month.
That seems like quite a value, considering that some of my therapist friends consider you to be the greatest living therapist in the world. Are you?
Well, in terms of my personal effectiveness with clients, I think that I'm certainly one of the most effective therapists doing REBT or cognitive behavior therapy. Whether I'm the best in the world—that would certainly be questionable with so many therapists around.
Do you think the Freudian tradition will ever die?
It will never completely die because it has a few good points. For example, people have motives and thoughts of which they are unaware. Most of cognitive therapy has now adopted a similar idea. On the other hand, the relationship part of psychoanalysis—where you must have a deep, emotional relationship with the client—will, I think, get kicked in the teeth one of these days. I just had a client this week who came to me after ten years of Freudian therapy. He's in love with his analyst, and she is sort of in love with him, though she's not going to go to bed with him. There's no question that she has aided this kind of intense personal involvement.
Freudians call this transference and countertransference, of course. Does this also happen in REBT?
Oh yes, and I recently wrote an article on it. In one situation, I was going too easy on a client because she was very bright and attractive. I didn't get after her about her low frustration tolerance, which I might have done with some other client or a male client. She took me to task for it, and she was right. I was too taken with her. But I watch that, to see that it doesn't interfere with the therapy.
Are you married? Any children?
I've lived "in sin" with the executive director of our institute for 35 years. I was married twice briefly before that.
Any children?
None to speak of.
Any regrets about that?
I would have liked having children to some degree, but frankly I haven't got the time to take the kids to the goddamn ballgame. So it would have had more disadvantages than advantages for them.
Do you think it's irrational for people to say "I don't want to be in a relationship?"
It could be rational or irrational. It's irrational when it's defensive because they're really afraid of rejection. But they could rationally decide that prolonged relationships take up too much time and effort and that they'd much rather do other kinds of things. But most people are afraid of rejection.
You appear to be unflappable. Is there anything I could say that would upset you?
I doubt it. As a matter of fact, as a result of my philosophy, I wasn't even upset about Hitler. I was willing to go to war to knock him off, but I didn't hate him. I hated what he was doing.
Your philosophy is not just something you teach; it is something you live by.
I hope so.
You're an unusually accomplished person.
Very few people have written more than 60 books and 700 papers—I've lost count.
Are you also happy?
Oh yes, I'm very happy. I like my work and I like the various aspects of it—going around the world, teaching the gospel according to St. Albert—I like that. And seeing clients, doing group therapy, writing books.
So now we get to the critical question: Are you productive and successful and happy because of your philosophy?
To some degree, yes, because most people would have given up when faced with all the criticism I've received over the years. I'm one of the best-loved psychologists in the United States, but I'm also probably the most hated one, now that Fred Skinner has died. I even wrote a paper years ago showing why we were both so productive—it was because we both didn't give that much of a shit what other people thought of us. So by not caring too much about what people think, I'm able to think for myself and propagate ideas which are very often unpopular. And I succeed with them because, again, I don't care too much what other people think.
Could people claim that when a client goes through this process and comes out feeling good and functioning well, he or she has become a cognitive clone of Albert Ellis?
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